Discussion on gas stations

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

Maybe my math is wrong, but wouldn't 200 gallons of water (gas prices at 2.50) = 500$? in more profit because the price of water is basically nill.

Which is why I think someone would do it.

Duh ya! I was thinking pure profit not whole price. Still doesn't make sense though. The risk is far greater than the reward.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

Maybe my math is wrong, but wouldn't 200 gallons of water (gas prices at 2.50) = 500$? in more profit because the price of water is basically nill.

Which is why I think someone would do it.

It would take a LOT of sales to reach 200 gallons of water (displaced fuel). The threshold for diluting fuel with water would have to be in the thousandths per gallon, which means that in order to effectively sell 1 gallon of water you'd have to sell thousands of gallons of fuel. So basically for every 1,000+ gallons of fuel sold you'd be saving $2.50 or whatever the price of the fuel is.

It seems unrealistic but I agree that some stations probably do try it, since they're all greedy bastards.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

It would take a LOT of sales to reach 200 gallons of water (displaced fuel). The threshold for diluting fuel with water would have to be in the thousandths per gallon, which means that in order to effectively sell 1 gallon of water you'd have to sell thousands of gallons of fuel. So basically for every 1,000+ gallons of fuel sold you'd be saving $2.50 or whatever the price of the fuel is.

It seems unrealistic but I agree that some stations probably do try it, since they're all greedy bastards.

They are businesses like any other and need to make a profit or die. Is where you work a "greedy bastard" because they make money? Are we all "greedy bastards" because we get paid so the company can make money?


Even if the are greedy that still does not mean they add water to fuel to make it go further. As you have said and everybody know (or should) water does not mix with gas. All that adding water to a storage tank would do is move the gas further up the tank. Of course if you get the last of the fuel out of the tank then you could have more water than gas but people would discover that in a hurry. If you pump that much water into your tank you are not going anyplace. So don't buy gas at stations that have stalled cars blocking the exits.


Looks like your best bet is to contact your State Inspection office and see if there were any other complaints from that day and station. The owner is never going to admit there was.


http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/16/g...ks-with-water/


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/mone...l-gas-stations


http://www.wbtv.com/story/26096488/w...y-water-in-gas


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nted-fuel.html


I can not find one single instance where gas was intentionally watered down. Not one.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

I can't image a large conglomerate like Shell or Exxon wouldn't have strict systems in place to ensure only their branded gas is being sold at stations with their name. But....

The smaller ones? Dunno.

The margin on gasoline for the station owner is like $.01 per gallon, so possibly there are stations that do this, at least to a small degree. A station holds 6,000 gallons of fuel, or somewhere around there, right? If you dilute a few hundred gallons, that would be a lot more profit, and considering modern cars have fuel systems that will compensate to a degree to the kind of gas in tank, well, who would ever know.

Maybe someone didn't know the station tank hadn't been filled, or they were waiting for a delivery and went ahead and put water in. Maybe you just got there at the wrong time.

Don't want to fuel the conspiracy though.

Regulation is typically done by a state governing body, retailers/franchisers sign fuel supply agreements with sellers. Those sellers aren't necessarily the fuel creators either - they can be re-sellers (bulk plants) but could also be direct from the source, depends on the contract. Here in California at any branded station I've never heard of water in the tanks intentionally, the margins are good as they are anyways! Plus most monitoring systems ( Veeder-Root) have water measuring sensors which would throw red flags and typically notify governing bodies if those levels go beyond compliance.

SWRCB, (state water resources control board) usually manage files on issues with underground storage tank contamination. Retailers are required to pay into an insurance fund for that reason, federally mandated I believe, too. States collect this information for tax purposes, compliance is typically accompanied with that.

A typical UST (underground storage tank) installed 1990s+ are double fiber glass walled or older steel with linings (more prone to leaks/contamination) and hold around 10,000 gallons, most branded stations doing 1,5 - 2,000,000 gallons/year have between 20,000 to 36,000 gallon storage and receive payloads 2-3 times per week, so it's unlikely that fuel sits for too long for significant condensation to accumulate but Tcoat is right, there is an acceptable level which is monitored. Profit margins can range from $0.01 to $1.00+ per gallon, depends on the seller, area, competition, etc. they just can't sell below cost (may be state dependent) as far as I know.

Don't fill up when the transport truck is filling the tanks, that's prime time for debris to be kicked up and pumped.

To OP, if the problem is contaminated fuel (unlikely) and you have proof in hand from respected agent (aka dealership is willing to put it in writing for you what the conclusive cause to your problem is and put their reputation on the line, not your buddy's hunch) then go here and contact the appropriate authorities, get legal counsel first and started building a suit against the retailer for negligence/lack of compliance.

http://deq.nc.gov/about/divisions/wa...-tanks-section

For a couple hundred bucks I'd cut your losses on move on with life but if you want to go up to bat for ethical reasons, then go for it - just be weary of any counter-suit statute your state may have should you got that far, although your attorney should tell ya. Otherwise if the retailer is unwilling to refund you for the tank of gas at least or flush labor costs, assuming it was their fault, then I say boycott the station and find the silver lining somewhere and go back to enjoying life.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

All that adding water to a storage tank would do is move the gas further up the tank. .

This...

The fuel and the water would have to either be blended somehow or it would have to be kept agitated to remain mixed in a stationary tank.

If you put 200 gallons of water in 10,000 gallon tank of fuel it would separate and sink at the bottom in a matter of a few hours at most. You would never be able to sell the fuel fast enough to take advantage of this.

Should add, I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't tried it, but that doesn't mean it was very successful.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They are businesses like any other and need to make a profit or die. Is where you work a "greedy bastard" because they make money? Are we all "greedy bastards" because we get paid so the company can make money?


Even if the are greedy that still does not mean they add water to fuel to make it go further. As you have said and everybody know (or should) water does not mix with gas. All that adding water to a storage tank would do is move the gas further up the tank. Of course if you get the last of the fuel out of the tank then you could have more water than gas but people would discover that in a hurry. If you pump that much water into your tank you are not going anyplace. So don't buy gas at stations that have stalled cars blocking the exits.


Looks like your best bet is to contact your State Inspection office and see if there were any other complaints from that day and station. The owner is never going to admit there was.


http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/16/g...ks-with-water/


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/mone...l-gas-stations


http://www.wbtv.com/story/26096488/w...y-water-in-gas


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nted-fuel.html


I can not find one single instance where gas was intentionally watered down. Not one.

A business isn't greedy for trying to make a profit, it's greedy when it rips people off to make a profit. Maybe they don't use water but some other solvent with a closer density to that of fuel. I could just be biased against gas stations but they've always steered me off. Definitely not a place I'd want to hang around in.

I've already given up on trying to get anyone inside the Shell to admit anything. I'm going to track down their supplier and ask them if they've received complaints, and if that doesn't work then I'll do what you suggested.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

To OP, if the problem is contaminated fuel (unlikely) and you have proof in hand from respected agent (aka dealership is willing to put it in writing for you what the conclusive cause to your problem is and put their reputation on the line, not your buddy's hunch) then go here and contact the appropriate authorities, get legal counsel first and started building a suit against the retailer for negligence/lack of compliance.

I don't remember saying anything about my "buddy's hunch". My car was towed straight to the dealership where the technicians there tested the fuel and confirmed that it was heavily diluted with water. I told them to make record of it and even keep a physical sample if possible. My "buddy" has nothing to do with this story besides that he's driving me around while I'm without my car.

I'm not exactly well off either btw. I'm not financially unstable but I have other things I need to pay for and a few hundred dollars saved could really help me out in the future. I can plan for regular maintenance but not for bs like this.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

A business isn't greedy for trying to make a profit, it's greedy when it rips people off to make a profit. Maybe they don't use water but some other solvent with a closer density to that of fuel. I could just be biased against gas stations but they've always steered me off. Definitely not a place I'd want to hang around in.

I've already given up on trying to get anyone inside the Shell to admit anything. I'm going to track down their supplier and ask them if they've received complaints, and if that doesn't work then I'll do what you suggested.

Asking people if they had complaints isn't going to get you anyplace. You expect them to say "Oh ya people complain about our product all the time". Your bigger issue is the extensive repair cost for the "damage". That is where you are getting ripped off.
Gas stations (especially the busy ones) are not adding shit to their fuel to try to earn a few cents. As Re Invention said they do fine on their own. Gas stations take a lot of flak for the price of gas but they don't set it the oil companies and governments do. They just provide the final product like any other business out there.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

a few hundred dollars saved could really help me out in the future. I can plan for regular maintenance but not for bs like this.

That sounds like you're living above your means. A few hundred dollars is chump change on repairing a car built in the last 10 years, regardless of brand. If you can't take a >$1k unexpected repair bill it may not have been wise to buy a $25k sports car.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Asking people if they had complaints isn't going to get you anyplace. You expect them to say "Oh ya people complain about our product all the time". Your bigger issue is the extensive repair cost for the "damage". That is where you are getting ripped off.
Gas stations (especially the busy ones) are not adding shit to their fuel to try to earn a few cents. As Re Invention said they do fine on their own. Gas stations take a lot of flak for the price of gas but they don't set it the oil companies and governments do. They just provide the final product like any other business out there.

Fair enough, but bear in mind that I haven't even seen the bill yet so no one here knows just how expensive the repairs were according to the dealership. They didn't say that it would be massively expensive, just that the fuel disposal would be the most costly. I know these guys and they know me so I'd like to think that they will give me a fair quote.

You're making it sound like I'm trying to accuse Shell of purposefully contaminating the fuel and breaking my car but I'm not, I know that it's probably an accidental leak. But at the same time we all know that fuel sold in America is not even near the quality of fuel sold in other countries, and that fuel of the same octane can be very different depending on the station you go to. I'm not some wacky conspiracy theorist but the ambiguity of what's actually in the pump leaves room for question.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

They didn't say that it would be massively expensive, just that the fuel disposal would be the most costly.

Depending on how much fuel it is, you don't really need dispose it at all, you just need to filter it. There are many funnels that provide a filter to keep water out of the tank. Worse case, you filter it to remove the water and other contaminants then use it in another vehicle or maybe lawn equipment.

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That sounds like you're living above your means. A few hundred dollars is chump change on repairing a car built in the last 10 years, regardless of brand. If you can't take a >$1k unexpected repair bill it may not have been wise to buy a $25k sports car.

It's not about if I can pay it or not, it's a matter of whether I want to.

I don't really understand why I'm suddenly being portrayed as the villain here. This wasn't meant to be a post about the car bill, just about the gas stations. Are you guys telling me that if your car broke down because of bad gas that you had no way of knowing was bad, you wouldn't at least try to get the responsible party to pay for the damages?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Silver Cervy

It's not about if I can pay it or not, it's a matter of whether I want to.

I don't really understand why I'm suddenly being portrayed as the villain here. This wasn't meant to be a post about the car bill, just about the gas stations. Are you guys telling me that if your car broke down because of bad gas that you had no way of knowing was bad, you wouldn't at least try to get the responsible party to pay for the damages?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...63&postcount=5

[Silver Cervy]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...63&postcount=5

That's a lesson you learn after a incident like this, though. The transaction is on my card history so I can always bring that up if they want proof of purchase.