STI Owner Thinks He Wants BRZ as DD & Track Car. Thoughts?

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

1. If you are experiencing the torque dip, then you are driving it wrong.
2. STI vs 86/brz is apple vs orange. The handling is different and the power is not remotely comparable.
3. Depends on what you mean by track. A lot of 86 folks run stock cars with no issues (20 min runs all day long), most have pad upgrades and that's it, ready to track the car. For reference my mate runs an MY16 sti with just brake pad upgrade and it doesn't explode either. Most people think mods are 'light' but have no real idea what this means when driving at track.

Originally Posted by Calvin27

Buys an STI, wants another track car. Confused...

To explain, I have 12+ years of track events in 5 different cars, Calvin. I'm not in the same universe as a pro driver or even a successful club racer, for that matter, but I know the difference between street and track in several different cars with varying degrees of modification.
The STI is my first AWD platform and all the other cars but one were RWD and mostly momentum cars. I see the STI as a nearly ideal street car and I love the power, but I still miss RWD. Of course, like most track guys, I spend 340+ days per year DDing the car and less than 30 on track; and that's my dilemma. But a RWD chassis with beautiful balance that moves around a bit when driven quickly isn't only rewarding on track, it's fun in town and in the country as well. What I'm trying to work out is if the BRZ is that car.
I think my STI has too much grip, especially on track, and too much weight as well. It's a great car, but...

jmimac points out the Miata track car as a solution to my dilemma, which I got a good chuckle out of because that's precisely what I intended to do until my wife surprised me by not seeing the perfect logic of it! Ah well.
You can cover a lot of ground if you own 2 cars. But if you can only choose one, that's much harder and something has to give

[JSube]

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

I have had 3 sti's and tracked other peoples, as well as a handful of wrx's. The only time I miss my turbo awd cars is for daily use. Auto-x and road course, I have been in love with the brz.

Originally Posted by jmimac351

I do ~30 track days / year and I need something reliable. The BRZ has been perfect so far. I don't like turbo cars for track use (notwithstanding those cars designed to handle it, which are very expensive). It's very difficult to manage the heat and reliability is a concern.

Your STi is a great DD. For the financial bath you'll take on swapping your 2015 STi to a BRZ (which won't be as good a daily driver), you could make a project out of finding a 2006 / 2007 NC Miata on Craigslist or eBay. I've seen them for under $7,000. Swap pads, fluid, and put a Hard Dog 4 point bar in it and head to the track. You'll have a car that is as fast as the BRZ, and you can afford to leave it on the side of the track on fire. Are you prepared to total your STi or a BRZ, financially? Will you be putting track insurance on it? A number of things need to be considered regarding what's in the cards...

You sound like a car guy with an itch. I'm there every few months. I wouldn't be so quick to get rid of the STi. Be realistic about your goals and ponder it. You could do a few events in the STi and observe other options at the track... talk to other guys, etc.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by smg1138

OP you definitely have the right idea. A header, tune, and E85 are the key to unlocking this car's potential. It still won't have as much power as an STI, but it makes a huge difference. I seriously love my FR-S in this form and get bummed every time I have to re-tune for gasoline when making road trips out to the boonies. One day I'll probably put a blower on it, but for now, I'm very happy with my baby.

Thanks fellas, your feedback has been very helpful and I look forward to more of it if I pull the trigger on a BRZ. On some personal notes:
ka-t Holy Crap, I was raised in Bismarck!
jmimac- I've done several Chin events in a 350Z I had before the STI at VIR and Mid-Ohio! Really a great organization, would love to get back with you guys sometime. Maybe in a BRZ
smg- I'm up in Louisville. If you ever drive north (or go to the Corvette Museum track in Bowling Green) I'd love a ride in your E85 car!

[Calvin27]

Originally Posted by JSube

I think my STI has too much grip, especially on track, and too much weight as well. It's a great car, but...

Fair enough if you prefer the rwd platform, but sti's should be track ready with some decent pads. I'm assuming circuit type stuff with 20 minute runs, as opposed to actual racing events where the track times are longer and no cool down laps etc.

Personally, I got the 86 because I'd lose my license if I had an sti. You guys have it lucky in USA, nanny state here in Aus!

[TylerLieberman]

Hey there. I went from a '13 FRS to a '16 STI. I tracked the FRS a lot (all drifting) and have taken the STI to the track a few times (this year will be better).

The two cars really are apples and oranges. The STI is a solid car for track use out of the box, but it does have some short comings. To track it reliably, you'd want better pads/fluid, upgraded pickup tube/windage tray, and possibly an upgraded oil cooler/radiator, depending on where you're going and how hard you're pushing it. New alignment also helps a bunch to eliminate the understeer!

The FRS is similar. Pads/fluid, maybe an oil cooler and you're pretty much set. The BRZ doesn't have the same straight line speed as the STI does, but, provided tires are the same, the BRZ can carry more speed into the corners. The biggest plus to tracking the BRZ compared to the STI is the difference in cost. Tracking an STI can get expensive between fuel, tires, and brakes. The heavy weight doesn't help. The BRZ is MUCH cheaper by comparison.

It really just comes down to what you want out of the car. It's largely a subjective choice. I grew up with light FR cars and love them dearly, but the fact that the STI can do everything I want at the track and everything I would ever need a daily driver to do is a huge win for me. Also, where as my STI is still mostly stock, I couldn't stand my FRS when it was stock. It was bland to me. I HAD to mess with a bunch of stuff to really love that car. I grew tired of spending thousands of dollars modifying cars, so the STI fits the bill perfectly for me.

Even with all that said, I still miss my FRS from time to time lol

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JSube

Thanks Mike, I'll look forward to reading your sticky, you're obviously very experienced with BRZs.
TurnIn Concepts is the shop and they bought a first year FA WRX for modding development. No shop BRZ I'm aware of but they have customers and their tuner has tuned a number of them.
They only advised I cool fluids for the track, which is also what you're saying. All that airflow/tuning business was me getting carried away because that's what I'd probably do- the second year, anyway, after I've learned something about the car.
Since I'd dive in with a performance package car the brakes would be ready for anything I'd need and I might even like the Sachs suspension upgrade. While I like to do mods like a lot of guys, I'm not interested in trying to re-engineer a well-designed car or throw money in the fire. This sounds promising!

When you're ready, we're here. Nobody has more actual testing experience with this platform than CSG.

I say get an oil cooler, a round of fluids, some camber bolts, brake pads, and track the car otherwise stock. Figure out what you like, and dislike, an then I can help you choose a direction for your car.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

Fair enough if you prefer the rwd platform, but sti's should be track ready with some decent pads. I'm assuming circuit type stuff with 20 minute runs, as opposed to actual racing events where the track times are longer and no cool down laps etc.

Personally, I got the 86 because I'd lose my license if I had an sti. You guys have it lucky in USA, nanny state here in Aus!

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Hey there. I went from a '13 FRS to a '16 STI. I tracked the FRS a lot (all drifting) and have taken the STI to the track a few times (this year will be better).

The two cars really are apples and oranges. The STI is a solid car for track use out of the box, but it does have some short comings. To track it reliably, you'd want better pads/fluid, upgraded pickup tube/windage tray, and possibly an upgraded oil cooler/radiator, depending on where you're going and how hard you're pushing it. New alignment also helps a bunch to eliminate the understeer!

The FRS is similar. Pads/fluid, maybe an oil cooler and you're pretty much set. The BRZ doesn't have the same straight line speed as the STI does, but, provided tires are the same, the BRZ can carry more speed into the corners. The biggest plus to tracking the BRZ compared to the STI is the difference in cost. Tracking an STI can get expensive between fuel, tires, and brakes. The heavy weight doesn't help. The BRZ is MUCH cheaper by comparison.

It really just comes down to what you want out of the car. It's largely a subjective choice. I grew up with light FR cars and love them dearly, but the fact that the STI can do everything I want at the track and everything I would ever need a daily driver to do is a huge win for me. Also, where as my STI is still mostly stock, I couldn't stand my FRS when it was stock. It was bland to me. I HAD to mess with a bunch of stuff to really love that car. I grew tired of spending thousands of dollars modifying cars, so the STI fits the bill perfectly for me.

Even with all that said, I still miss my FRS from time to time lol

Right Calvin, my track events are all non-competitive HPDEs. The STI is a very capable car and Tyler's right about the "can do everything" part.
But overheating is a serious issue that has to be addressed and I'll need to do that this year if I keep it. I did a couple Spring events at Road America and Mid-Ohio when I got the car and didn't have any mods except an AOS, a Cobb Stage 1 tune and R compound tires. Car ran great, had lots of fun. A year later I modded up to a TBE and a protune but didn't track it because I was sharing a friend's track car all year. After the season, as an afterthought I installed an oil temp/pressure gauge in the STI. This last summer I saw oil temps high enough on track I'd have to come off after a handful of laps & a cool-down lap to not overheat. It's valid to point to the mods for the overheating issues, but I'm glad those first events at big tracks were Spring & not Summer events. And since on a 90° day last summer I maxed my oil temps just bedding-in track pads (3-4 runs up to 60mph WOT) I think the car runs hot anyway. I hope your friend with the MY16 installs a couple gauges.
Tyler, that FRS you had was beautiful. Over the years I've regretted selling almost every car I've had. But if you can't collect, you have to go thru cars. It's a rule

[Yanbags]

Going to copy/paste a post I posted on a different thread a while back. I do ~15 days worth of HPDE events every season, some with PCA (now in the solo group), some solo with my smaller local track. The BRZ is very well suited to the track and feels more at home than the STI ever did. The BRZ is joyous to drive around town too; it's a very compliant ride with great visibility. The only thing I find myself missing about the STI sometimes is the explosive power and torque for DD/highway, but I don't DD it much.

TL;DR - I also previously had an STI, tracked it a lot, and realized its shortcomings:

My previous car was a 2013 STi. I had bought it brand new because it was my dream car from my teenage years and man did it bring me a lot of joy. I started getting a lot of seat time at the track with the STi - primarily at Englishtown Raceway Park, NJMP, and Watkins Glen. I did a bunch of DE events with PCA, and the STi was an extremely capable car having no problem keeping up with the 911s in my groups. Spent a lot of time and money to get the car set up exactly how I wanted it with top quality mods and man that thing was a rocket. The winter months were insanely fun; it was incredible what you can get away with by having a proper set of winter tires. After getting more serious about track time, I've been feeling that the car is just too porky and I really wanted to get into a light-weight RWD platform.

I had test driven the BRZ about 3 years ago when I first got my STi but it didn't really call to me at all. After test driving the BRZ again, I took a more spirited approach to the test drive. I swear I was sold instantly. The first track day I did with the BRZ was at Watkins Glen with nothing other than upgraded brake fluid & pads and I couldn't stop smiling. The BRZ out of the box is so incredibly sorted, I couldn't believe it. Even the street manners are so much better than the STi.

Long story short - the BRZ is slow as a slug in a straight line compared to the STi, but driving dynamics and the way the car moves around around a corner has me with an ear to ear grin every time. 1000% no regrets. I've had people say "you gave up your STi for that!?" Once you drive a twin the way it's meant to be driven, everything about the car makes sense.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

Going to copy/paste a post I posted on a different thread a while back. I do ~15 days worth of HPDE events every season, some with PCA (now in the solo group), some solo with my smaller local track. The BRZ is very well suited to the track and feels more at home than the STI ever did. The BRZ is joyous to drive around town too; it's a very compliant ride with great visibility. The only thing I find myself missing about the STI sometimes is the explosive power and torque for DD/highway, but I don't DD it much.

TL;DR - I also previously had an STI, tracked it a lot, and realized its shortcomings:

My previous car was a 2013 STi. I had bought it brand new because it was my dream car from my teenage years and man did it bring me a lot of joy. I started getting a lot of seat time at the track with the STi - primarily at Englishtown Raceway Park, NJMP, and Watkins Glen. I did a bunch of DE events with PCA, and the STi was an extremely capable car having no problem keeping up with the 911s in my groups. Spent a lot of time and money to get the car set up exactly how I wanted it with top quality mods and man that thing was a rocket. The winter months were insanely fun; it was incredible what you can get away with by having a proper set of winter tires. After getting more serious about track time, I've been feeling that the car is just too porky and I really wanted to get into a light-weight RWD platform.

I had test driven the BRZ about 3 years ago when I first got my STi but it didn't really call to me at all. After test driving the BRZ again, I took a more spirited approach to the test drive. I swear I was sold instantly. The first track day I did with the BRZ was at Watkins Glen with nothing other than upgraded brake fluid & pads and I couldn't stop smiling. The BRZ out of the box is so incredibly sorted, I couldn't believe it. Even the street manners are so much better than the STi.

Long story short - the BRZ is slow as a slug in a straight line compared to the STi, but driving dynamics and the way the car moves around around a corner has me with an ear to ear grin every time. 1000% no regrets. I've had people say "you gave up your STi for that!?" Once you drive a twin the way it's meant to be driven, everything about the car makes sense.

Hey Yan, I remember your name from iwsti & nasioc, good to hear from you. Yeah, I've been on track enuf to feel the weight of the STI as something of a negative too. Power=great, weight=not so much- you pay a penalty on consumables for sure, like another member has pointed out in this thread. I have a lot to think about...

[Racecomp Engineering]

The STI is for sure the more usable DD and also faster around a track. Also tons of fun on the street.

In general, I recommend the BRZ for those that want to learn how to drive better. Basically, take 2 drivers of equal natural talent and no experience, put one in a stock BRZ and one in a stock STI, give them a year of events, and the BRZ driver will probably be the better driver at the end of the year (put em both in karts and see who wins).

You sound like you've got a decent amount of experience, but it also sounds like you're not out to break track records. The BRZ is just a hell of a lot of fun (light=fun) and it happens to be cheaper to run. Like CSG said...oil cooler, pads, and fluid is all you "need" for an experienced driver. You can go nuts from there but you don't have to if you're just trying to have fun.

- Andrew

[DarkSunrise]

Similar story here with Yanbags. Previously had an STI hatch, switched to FR-S. It's a great little car on the track, you'll love it. STI was good too, but the heavier weight and AWD understeer made it less enjoyable for me. If you know you want a RWD coupe for track use, I wouldn't hesitate to switch.

Probably worth considering the other usual suspects as well, if you haven't already (S2000, Miata, Vette/Z06, M3).

[CSG Mike]

Haha since we're all sharing STI stories, I've also owned a 06 STI, and currently have a 16 WRX daily driver, as well as a 17 BRZ dedicated track car.

The S2000 is still king for pure driving immersion though.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Haha since we're all sharing STI stories, I've also owned a 06 STI, and currently have a 16 WRX daily driver, as well as a 17 BRZ dedicated track car.

The S2000 is still king for pure driving immersion though.

How do you compare the 06 sti to the 16 wrx for daily/canyons?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by finch1750

How do you compare the 06 sti to the 16 wrx for daily/canyons?

The 16 is a better overall car. The STI is a faster car out of the box due to the performance oriented changes, even comparing a 06 STI to a 16 WRX.

[zdr93523]

I won't repeat what everyone said but having owned, tracked, and instructed in both, I could track a BRZ for years with only the mods Mike suggested (oil cooler and brake fluid) and be happy with the car and driving experience. I would want to modify the STi immediately to combat the weight and understeer. They have more power than the chassis, tires, and suspension can handle on the track and you can't use the power the way you would want to because of the other deficiencies. On the other hand, the BRZ is a perfectly balanced and well engineered package right out of the box. The BRZ will help you develop yourself to become a better driver and they're much, much more fun to drive.