Decisions... Celica replacement?

[hotmetal]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

I've decided I can't give up my '03 Celica GT-S TRD for an FR-S, at least not as they are now. Aside from my stubborn "must be Toyota branding", I see the FR-S as a car that is on par with my now almost 10 year old Celica and I expect more advancements than that after 10 years.

For me though, I see it as a lateral move, some things getting better while others get worse. I personally won't pull the trigger until I see a definitive upgrade. If the Toyota GT 86 Limited were available in N.A. I'd have been first in line to get one. Seriously, I canceled my "pre-order" (I started the list of "those who are interested" at my local dealership, before they would take down payments.) but the second I found out it was a Scion and no Toyota version in N.A. I had myself removed. But that was my brand loyalty speaking, I didn't know features then. I do now and I'm glad I still canceled out.

I'm not as stubborn about branding although I too would have preferred it be a Toyota since it is one everywhere else overseas. Totally agree on it being a lateral move from the Celica, but just by being new and not 320k used, it's appealing. Initial impressions in the interior quality bugged me a bit, it felt cheaper than my 10 yr old base Celica. +1 for wishing the GT 86 Limited car came to North America. Ah well.

Maybe waiting one model year isn't the worst idea. Problem is I have started to fear the end is near for my Celica and I don't want to act in desperate times when I need a car to get to work. I'm not putting a new motor in it if the rings finally cause major damage... Way too much $$$ to spend on a 10 yr old car.

[thill]

Just being the realist here, if you plan on keeping this car 10+ years or so and want to have kids and are 6'4", I would recommend looking at some of the other hatchbacks on the market. I think kids are doable in the FR-S until they get old enough to need the legroom and then it could be tough, unless you use your other vehicle dedicated for most of your kid shuttling. We have a minivan, so it was not as big an issue for me, but if your expectation is to shuttle kids often, I would look at some other cars out there.

As a former VW owner, I agree with the above that reliability and cost to repair would be a concern and an extended warranty would be highly recommended.

Other cars to consider in your price range would be the Mazda Speed3, WRX, Ford Focus ST, and Hyundai Veloster Turbo (Hyundai would be the only car that would offer an automatic).

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by kappaknight

I don't mean for this to come as a flame, but that's a pretty ______ POV. It's one thing to choose Toyota over VW or BMW as your preference but to omit yourself from having fun because Toyota decides to ship this under a different badge just doesn't make sense to me. If I had my eye on a hot chick, I certainly wouldn't lose interest overnight if she dyed her hair a different but still sexy color.

The two companies teamed up to make something better than both can do alone and in the end, you'd still be filling Toyota's pockets with cash. I just don't get how this equals brand loyalty.

When you've driven Toyota vehicles for years and then see Scion vehicles, you can tell the difference. There is a noticeable quality difference. It's not as simple as this one is blue and that one is red. The features between the two are very different (check my conversion thread)and Scion is just lacking. It's more like, you find a hot chick (Toyota) but then you see her daughter (Scion) and you opt for the daughter because she's not as developed. (Why did you start using that analogy, now this is starting to sound bad. For the sake of my sanity I'm going to say they are both of age.)

Originally Posted by denverizzles

I'm not really sure you giving an apples to apples comparison. The celica is obviously FWD and the FR-S is RWD. The attributes and the reason why it was built are two different beings and genres. The celica was not built to drift or be a track car. It was meant to be a good looking sports cars. When the celica was made it was and still is a great car, but it wasn't built the same way the FR-S was built. Now this is DEFINITELY not a flame to the celica as many of my friends owned and still own one and it's a wonderful car, but as i said i don't believe it's an apples to apples comparison.

You only say that you expect more advancements in 10 years? i'm not sure what you were expecting? for example, lets look at the BMW m3. the late 90's M3 had roughly 240ish hp with a 3.2 inline 6 (if i remember), the next model had 330hp with a 3.2 inline 6 with 330hp, the current model pushes over 450 with a 4.0 v8.

You don't see much engine improvement aside from a bigger engine. You see technology improvements with the e36 to e92 models because of the hp difference, but how many stock cars do you know, pushes more than 100hp per liter of displacement?

So my question to you is what were you expecting from a car that was built to be light weight, controllable, and have a racing spirit?

again, the celica is an awesome car lol...it was my first car ever (albeit it was a 1990) (god bless it's soul)

You clearly didn't keep up on the last gen Celica. It was built to be a track car, in spite of it's FWD. It handles very well and is lighter than the FR-S, the last gen Celi weighed in at ~2500 lbs. Think it's 2554 lbs. to be exact. The 2ZZ-GE is also nothing to shake a stick at.

The last gen Celica also had a 1.8L 180hp engine, so matching the 100hp/L of the FR-S. I never once bawked performance of the FR-S, in fact I complemented it.

These cars are very similar, they are indeed both apples.

My issue is it's lack of features, standard or otherwise, and the quality, especially of the interior. As stated, the Toyota GT 86 Limited meets my expectations, the Scion FR-S does not.

Originally Posted by hotmetal

I'm not as stubborn about branding although I too would have preferred it be a Toyota since it is one everywhere else overseas. Totally agree on it being a lateral move from the Celica, but just by being new and not 320k used, it's appealing. Initial impressions in the interior quality bugged me a bit, it felt cheaper than my 10 yr old base Celica. +1 for wishing the GT 86 Limited car came to North America. Ah well.

Maybe waiting one model year isn't the worst idea. Problem is I have started to fear the end is near for my Celica and I don't want to act in desperate times when I need a car to get to work. I'm not putting a new motor in it if the rings finally cause major damage... Way too much $$$ to spend on a 10 yr old car.

In your case, I can see the concern of your current vehicles condition. I only have ~82000 km on mine. If I were in your shoes I'd be a tad bit more willing to consider the Scion. I'd say its definitely worth waiting a year, let them work the kinks out and see what other options come out. They are already bringing out the fog lights in about a month, who knows what a year will bring. You also have the advantage of not having my brand stubbornness (loyalty) lol

[michaelahess]

Originally Posted by hotmetal

The Celi has been paid off for 8 years. Any payment is gonna suck hahaha.

To address the Rav4 comments vs. Camry to accompany an FRS, I'm leaning that way primarily for storage and versatility.. Hockey gear, dog, strollers etc. all fit better in a Rav than a Camry. The 4 cyl Rav gets decent mileage and has enough power.... Plus 4WD in winter is a nice bonus.

I'm also thinking of keeping the Celica even if we get a pair of new vehicles, use it as winter beater etc. but we have a 2 car garage and it seems silly to own 3 cars knowing one of them is outside and in the way or facing the elements. Hmmmm.

I now have four vehicles, all have always been left outside during the wonderful Wyoming winters. Long as you keep them clean, tinted, and windshield sun guards, this isn't even a problem!

My bro-in-laws Rav 4 is VERY good in the snow, I was tossing it around a bit this winter right after he got it, very sure footed.

And yes the Celi is like the FRS in a LOT of ways, just more room and only 89% the fun ! Still take a last gen Celi over any other hatch on the market.

[hotmetal]

Originally Posted by thill

Just being the realist here, if you plan on keeping this car 10+ years or so and want to have kids and are 6'4", I would recommend looking at some of the other hatchbacks on the market. I think kids are doable in the FR-S until they get old enough to need the legroom and then it could be tough, unless you use your other vehicle dedicated for most of your kid shuttling. We have a minivan, so it was not as big an issue for me, but if your expectation is to shuttle kids often, I would look at some other cars out there.

As a former VW owner, I agree with the above that reliability and cost to repair would be a concern and an extended warranty would be highly recommended.

Other cars to consider in your price range would be the Mazda Speed3, WRX, Ford Focus ST, and Hyundai Veloster Turbo (Hyundai would be the only car that would offer an automatic).

Sadly I'm a realist too, otherwise I'd be posting about my new FR-S by now.

It would be great to keep something again for 10 yrs, but I'm thinking it's gonna be hard to get lucky like that twice with something sporty/fun to drive that is $25k +tax. 6 years is more likely.

As for other suggestions:

Mazda Speed3 - I could own it as long as I never had to look at the front-end styling. Fun ride to drive for sure.

WRX - The WRX hatch starts at $33k in Ontario, plus 13% tax, so it's almost $40 grand out the door... just too much $... albeit an awesome car.

Focus ST - Is it even coming to Canada and when?

The Veloster is ugly IMHO and I couldn't be seen in one although I'm sure the turbo makes it much more fun...

I've also thought about buying an off-lease 3-4 yr old Lexus IS250/350... but not that seriously. My cousin has a 2006 BMW 330i coupe, which I've driven and liked... and that car fit good, with a practical amount of room, but cost of ownership has been high for him.

Maybe I should just listen to the part of me that has always wanted a 4x4 Tacoma Xtracab and finally cave in... terrible mileage but another way of having fun and versatile...

[thill]

Originally Posted by hotmetal

Sadly I'm a realist too, otherwise I'd be posting about my new FR-S by now.

It would be great to keep something again for 10 yrs, but I'm thinking it's gonna be hard to get lucky like that twice with something sporty/fun to drive that is $25k +tax. 6 years is more likely.

As for other suggestions:

Mazda Speed3 - I could own it as long as I never had to look at the front-end styling. Fun ride to drive for sure.

WRX - The WRX hatch starts at $33k in Ontario, plus 13% tax, so it's almost $40 grand out the door... just too much $... albeit an awesome car.

Focus ST - Is it even coming to Canada and when?

The Veloster is ugly IMHO and I couldn't be seen in one although I'm sure the turbo makes it much more fun...

I've also thought about buying an off-lease 3-4 yr old Lexus IS250/350... but not that seriously. My cousin has a 2006 BMW 330i coupe, which I've driven and liked... and that car fit good, with a practical amount of room, but cost of ownership has been high for him.

Maybe I should just listen to the part of me that has always wanted a 4x4 Tacoma Xtracab and finally cave in... terrible mileage but another way of having fun and versatile...

You could also dive some of the sedans that have some power (Camry V6, Fusion V6, Kia Optima turbo, Hyundai Sonata Turbo, etc). All of them are powerful sedans and pretty practical. You will give up the handling but if you are considering a truck it might be a nice balance

[hotmetal]

Originally Posted by thill

You could also dive some of the sedans that have some power (Camry V6, Fusion V6, Kia Optima turbo, Hyundai Sonata Turbo, etc). All of them are powerful sedans and pretty practical. You will give up the handling but if you are considering a truck it might be a nice balance

Camry SE either 4-cyl or V6 is strong candidate for my wife if we don't go with a RAV4... it's the closest Toyota in size to her G6 and a great car for long term ownership... plus it has paddle shift (albeit not a great response time) and a nice interior.

The RAV4 is due for an all-new model probably this fall... so we may wait to see what it looks like and go with that or maybe get a discounted price on the old generation...

Not a big fan of turbo 4-cyls in sedans... although the Optima's a nice looking car... can't see myself ever buying a Kia.

Should drive the Fusion to compare with new Camry.

Damn I love test driving stuff in the summer... car shopping is fun.

[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

My issue is it's lack of features, standard or otherwise, and the quality, especially of the interior. As stated, the Toyota GT 86 Limited meets my expectations, the Scion FR-S does not.

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If SCION the brand had the same exact car as the rest of the world I wouldn't give a crap what badge it has. But it doesn't, and considering that my celica isn't a bad driving car for a fwd car, and offers more features, I simply can't bring myself to get rid of it for an FRS. It just feels like a downgrade for me. Now in my situation im just gonna keep it since its paid off and buy a BRZ as well. But the FRS is definitely not an upgrade to our GTS feature wise. I like to think of the FRS as a sports car for a new generation and the BRZ as a car for an older crowd(just sucks toyota wont be getting my money this time).

[2nd86]

I can relate!

Originally Posted by hotmetal

Hi guys. First post here so be nice.

I bought my current car new in Jan/02. It's a 2002 Toyota Celica GT, 5 spd manual with 320,000kms and counting. I still love the car despite it beginning to show its age. Motor burns 1 litre of oil every 1000kms on average, often more. Shoddy rings on that engine from 00-02... Yet it still runs fine, is a good DD and looks decent.
Me too - bought in December 01, 99,000 miles, still loved it but tired of adding oil. Sold it about 6 weeks ago for $5,000.

Here's the problem. I drove an FR-S last week.... And loved it.
Yup!

I was single and 20 when I bought the Celica. I'm getting married in a month and my wife to be needs new wheels too. She drives a 2006 Pontiac G6 that I hate and has repair bills that make me cringe.
...I was 21...but am still single

We are the kind of people that keep cars until they die, and need to be smart about the next 2 cars we get.
me too

I'm thinking either Camry SE 4-cyl or Rav4 for her and an FR-S for me.
Picked up my FR-S this morning! Hot Lava MT

I'm the enthuiast, she sees cars as appliances.

Problem I have with the FRS vs. the Celica is the loss of praticality of the hatchback vs the trunk. The hatch allows me to fit hockey equipment and gear related to my work that won't fit in the FR-S. Plus I'm 6'4 and wedging any future kids that may show up in the back seems impractical on a daily basis.
Agreed, I put all kinds of crap in my Celica, this was a major consideration. Also, I have no wife-car as backup.

So.. Just share her car right? Well she prefers automatic and would need to be able to drive the FR-S too. I think I'd miss the clutch.
You will probably miss the clutch, and ultimately resent your wife.

Any suggestions for 2 vehicles both under 30k out the door?


We drive year round in 4 seasons. Mix of highway and weekend fun...

Decisions decisions.

My solution was to spend $3,000 for an old pickup to use when needed. Since your wife is not an enthusiast, consider buying her a base model or 1-2 year old vehicle, and use the extra money for a truck. As an added benefit, you have an extra vehicle around if one is in the shop. Then, get yourself and FR-S!
As for the kids...there are some other posts showing carseats in the back. Also, they don't "just show up"...

[ichitaka05]

iirc didn't Matrix made AWD?

[2nd86]

Originally Posted by Saber_TRD

You clearly didn't keep up on the last gen Celica. It was built to be a track car, in spite of it's FWD. It handles very well and is lighter than the FR-S, the last gen Celi weighed in at ~2500 lbs. Think it's 2554 lbs. to be exact. The 2ZZ-GE is also nothing to shake a stick at.

The last gen Celica also had a 1.8L 180hp engine, so matching the 100hp/L of the FR-S. I never once bawked performance of the FR-S, in fact I complemented it.

These cars are very similar, they are indeed both apples.

(loyalty) lol

Agreed - I just got my FR-S and drove it 150 miles down the freeway, and was surprised how much it felt like my Celica in that limited context..

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Celicadude

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If SCION the brand had the same exact car as the rest of the world I wouldn't give a crap what badge it has. But it doesn't, and considering that my celica isn't a bad driving car for a fwd car, and offers more features, I simply can't bring myself to get rid of it for an FRS. It just feels like a downgrade for me. Now in my situation im just gonna keep it since its paid off and buy a BRZ as well. But the FRS is definitely not an upgrade to our GTS feature wise. I like to think of the FRS as a sports car for a new generation and the BRZ as a car for an older crowd(just sucks toyota wont be getting my money this time).

Guys get the BRZ Limited...solves all your issues...or wait till the 2014 model FR-S and it will have everything that the Toyota 86 GT has...

Scion will be around for awhile...the FR-S made sure of that...

We just need the FR-S to have the same equipment as a Toyota GT. I would be willing to pay for the options. But after seeing a FR-S in person, the car is sweet. Much better than any other toyota, except for the LFA...

[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

Guys get the BRZ Limited...solves all your issues...

All ready on it . Now if i can find one in my area with the way I want it. I swear finding a BRZ wrb limited manual is like playing wheres waldo.

[Saber_TRD]

Originally Posted by Celicadude

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If SCION the brand had the same exact car as the rest of the world I wouldn't give a crap what badge it has. But it doesn't, and considering that my celica isn't a bad driving car for a fwd car, and offers more features, I simply can't bring myself to get rid of it for an FRS. It just feels like a downgrade for me. Now in my situation im just gonna keep it since its paid off and buy a BRZ as well. But the FRS is definitely not an upgrade to our GTS feature wise. I like to think of the FRS as a sports car for a new generation and the BRZ as a car for an older crowd(just sucks toyota wont be getting my money this time).

Sadly I cannot go the BRZ route and not just because of my brand stubbornness (loyalty), but because of the local Subaru dealer. The only one within a 2 hour driving radius has been charged for rolling back odos, over charging for government mandated insurance, sabotage or fraud related acts during repairs, seriously it's a long scary list and I have no idea how they are still in business. They're due in court yet again. I don't even have to step into my brand dilemma.

Originally Posted by tripjammer

Guys get the BRZ Limited...solves all your issues...or wait till the 2014 model FR-S and it will have everything that the Toyota 86 GT has...

Scion will be around for awhile...the FR-S made sure of that...

We just need the FR-S to have the same equipment as a Toyota GT. I would be willing to pay for the options. But after seeing a FR-S in person, the car is sweet. Much better than any other toyota, except for the LFA...

As I stated above, BRZ is a no go for me.

I hope so on your guess for the 2014 FR-S and that's basically what I'm waiting for, more of the big ticket items to be included then I can 3rd party convert the rest, since my dealership is telling me the can't get any of the JDM/EUDM parts I asked for. If that doesn't change or not enough changes, I may be looking at ending my long standing hold with Toyota, I really don't want to though. After seven years of waiting for a Toyota sports car, being promised one by the President and CEO only to have them not follow through in North America, then dealerships telling me they can't get JDM/EUDM parts when I've done it before with my Celica.... they just keep digging the hole and putting the nails in the coffin, with people like me screaming and kicking inside.

I've seen the car in person too, it only strengthened my position on not getting the car. By "Much better than any other toyota," I hope you mean currently available, as like we've stated, our Celica GT-S' are on par/better than the FR-S as it is now.