86/BRZ/FR-S Bolt In Roll Bar by Alex Pfeiffer-Battleversion

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I'd be interested to see how this looks with most of the interior still intact, and to see how this sits behind the seats. Does the forward bar/plate just rest on the carpet? If so, wouldn't that mean the entire thing is only held in by the four bolts in the very back of the car?
How long does it take to put in and take out? Do the rear seats have to be removed to install it? Obviously the foam and carpet in the back would have to be trimmed the first time, and likely removed to install this "cage" but does anything else have to be REMOVED to install this?

Holes will be drilled in the floor pan for the main hoop also. If not then this is more like a Cusco death cage than anything else.

[03Z33]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I'd be interested to see how this looks with most of the interior still intact

The Blue AE Performance Scion FR-S is running the same bar and they kept the back seat in place. I don't have any pictures of that car other than these two:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

to see how this sits behind the seats. Does the forward bar/plate just rest on the carpet? If so, wouldn't that mean the entire thing is only held in by the four bolts in the very back of the car?

It gets bolted through the floor using three bolts per side, total of six bolts going to plates that mount from under the car.

Originally Posted by Kestrel

How long does it take to put in and take out?

20 Minutes, pull out two front seats, undo 10 nuts/bolts, undo quick connect couplers and slide the bar out the front.

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Do the rear seats have to be removed to install it?

No, rear seat can be left in place.

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Obviously the foam and carpet in the back would have to be trimmed the first time, and likely removed to install this "cage" but does anything else have to be REMOVED to install this?

That's all, just the foam and carpet.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

It can also be easily argued that running one WITHOUT harnesses and a fixed back seat is just as dangerous.

I'm not here to argue different theories on safety. Those topics have been beaten to death. It's up to each person to decide what they're comfortable with for their own car.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Rear strut mounts.. not sure I trust that when the weight will be distributed on those very small extensions to the strut top. Not a fan of using the strut mounts anyways.

The force is spread evenly across the plate to the floor, the nuts are only there to keep the bar from moving/rattling. He can always make a larger plate for you if you like, but this is more than sufficient for the purpose of this bar. This location was specifically chosen because it's the most structurally sound placement.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

For that insane price (for a 4 point) the cross bar should have a short bar added between it and the harness bar, and some harness guides wouldn't be a bad idea.. not needed but it never hurts as an option.

Both of those options can be added. He also does one with a straight harness bar, that isn't swept back for those that don't care about the loss of drivers side leg room.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Holes will be drilled in the floor pan for the main hoop also. If not then this is more like a Cusco death cage than anything else.

Yes, total of six bolts for the main hoop with plates from underneath the car.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 03Z33

I'm not here to argue different theories on safety. Those topics have been beaten to death. It's up to each person to decide what they're comfortable with for their own car.

Agreed, but it's something that should be noted by anyone selling bars/cages IMO. Some groups (including the events I run, which may include an 86 Expo next year) will NOT let you on track with that setup. So I think it's a fair item to mention to people interested in this bar.

The force is spread evenly across the plate to the floor, the nuts are only there to keep the bar from moving/rattling. He can always make a larger plate for you if you like, but this is more than sufficient for the purpose of this bar. This location was specifically chosen because it's the most structurally sound placement.

Proof? I'm going to ask some engineer friends (some of whom have built cages that have been tested (unfortunately)). To me, that strikes me as a compromise location to avoid drilling in the back. I've seen it before but have yet to see one tested in a rollover. I'm likely a little more agressive on avoiding compromises with safety equipment than the majority here though.

Both of those options can be added. He also does one with a straight harness bar, that isn't swept back for those that don't care about the loss of drivers side leg room.

that little bar should be standard though

I'm definitely interested in bar/cage development for this car, even though it won't become more than just a light usage DE car (ie 6 events a year or so) for years

[Matt Andrews]

this is a good looking style bar. And probably an effective mount for harnesses if you are looking for one. And I do get the idea was to have something that bolted to existing holes without hacking up the chassis.

For people that are looking for a safety upgrade, here are a couple things missing in this design that would prevent it from passing a safety inspection for any track day org that evaluates safety equipment.

1. The rear bars are multi piece.
2. rear mounting location: rollbars transfer weight into what they are mounted on. The rear mounts are secured adjacent to the shock towers, but the mounting plate only holds it in place - It's not positioned in a way that would transfer force into a substantially reinforced portion of the chassis. It would transfer force into that hollow stamped steel piece the bar sits above. Best case the bar would twist and deform the mounting plate. worse case it would tear it.
3. I haven't seen the front mounting location, but unless it bolts to something like the frame rail, it would provide no protection in a roll over. There is a video on youtube of a mustang that bolted a rolbar to the floorpan and not a secure chassis mount. In the roll over, the bars just pushed through the thin metal of the floor pan and the rollbar ended up at shoulder height in the cabin. A backing plate won't change that.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Matt Andrews

1. The rear bars are multi piece.
2. rear mounting location: rollbars transfer weight into what they are mounted on. The rear mounts are secured adjacent to the shock towers, but the mounting plate only holds it in place - It's not positioned in a way that would transfer force into a substantially reinforced portion of the chassis. It would transfer force into that hollow stamped steel piece the bar sits above. Best case the bar would twist and deform the mounting plate. worse case it would tear it.
3. I haven't seen the front mounting location, but unless it bolts to something like the frame rail, it would provide no protection in a roll over. There is a video on youtube of a mustang that bolted a rolbar to the floorpan and not a secure chassis mount. In the roll over, the bars just pushed through the thin metal of the floor pan and the rollbar ended up at shoulder height in the cabin. A backing plate won't change that.

In general I agree.. but..

1. I've never seen a bolt in bar that wasn't setup like that. Very difficult not to have a joint, but those joints are VERY strong and have been used with success before. The tube over tube joint method works too.

2. Could not agree more! And everyone else I've talked to and shown pics to agrees also. Two bolts only which aren't designed to withstand a ton of shearing force, combined with that raised stamped steel which will rip off the main body with enough force and the minimal and offset mounting arms.....

3. With a proper mounting plate that should not happen. Backing plates are to prevent the reverse from happening. Sheet metal in the floor pan is fairly thin that's why it needs to have the load spread out over a large enough mounting plate. Certainly it's possible, but most real cage designs won't do much more than welded on mounting plates or boxes.

[gmookher]

this needs to be real world tested

[03Z33]

Thanks for your opinions Dave and Matt.

I think we can all agree it's difficult to please everyone. There will always be those that want a true race cage and are willing to make the sacrifices associated with that. In fact Alex will be building a full race cage in a dedicated FR-S race car soon that will see professional race duty.
Some won't appreciate the added value in a made in USA, TIG welded bar with $100+ quick connect couplers, for those something like an Autopower bar may be good enough.
There are also those that just want a pure "show" cage like Cusco.

I've had all of the above in various cars. This time around I decided to go this route as I prefer the fit and finish of what I feel is a much safer, lighter and more livable bar than what I could get somewhere else.
In the future, I might decide to go with a full weld in cage, but for now I'd like to keep the option of going back to stock.

Originally Posted by gmookher

this needs to be real world tested

Are you volunteering?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 03Z33

Thanks for your opinions Dave and Matt.

I think we can all agree it's difficult to please everyone. There will always be those that want a true race cage and are willing to make the sacrifices associated with that. In fact Alex will be building a full race cage in a dedicated FR-S race car soon that will see professional race duty.
Some won't appreciate the added value in a made in USA, TIG welded bar with $100+ quick connect couplers, for those something like an Autopower bar may be good enough.
There are also those that just want a pure "show" cage like Cusco.

I've had all of the above in various cars. This time around I decided to go this route as I prefer the fit and finish of what I feel is a much safer, lighter and more livable bar than what I could get somewhere else.
In the future, I might decide to go with a full weld in cage, but for now I'd like to keep the option of going back to stock.

I hope you don't think we are just attacking it for the sack of attacking it. I just think the design could be improved to increase the functionality of the bar.

I definately appreciate that it was built in the US, TIG'd (although not really needed in a bar, but good TIG welding is awesome!) and uses (I'm assuming) Ballistic Fab ID joints. Although those joints are only ~$35 each, not 100+. Even with two of them at retail Autopower and Kirk both also make good bolt ins, and while their joint method is more common I like these joints.

I agree that the Cusco crap is just for show.

For the best fit and finish, you can't beat a truely custom, no compromise design, that's all I've been using lately.

[VSGTS14]

i would like to see this one on the track. it looks very nice.

[jumbaco]

I'd like to see one with the interior re-installed to see how much of it needs to be cut. Looks good though

[Matt Andrews]

fair points 03Z33. Looking forward to seeing your car on Sunday. I'll be on track. white FRS with blue wheels and AP brakes. hard to miss.

[03Z33]

Originally Posted by Matt Andrews

fair points 03Z33. Looking forward to seeing your car on Sunday. I'll be on track. white FRS with blue wheels and AP brakes. hard to miss.

Thanks Matt, see you out there!

Here are a few pics of the back seat bases re-installed and the carpeting installed. I don't have the foam pieces and don't plan to re-install the rear seat backrest since it needs to be trimmed and I'm planning to sell my interior complete un-modified. I'm sure someone will post pictures of the bar with the back seat trimmed eventually.

[Dave-ROR]

Can you grab a pic of the main hoop mounting and backing plates?

Thanks!

[diirk]

Originally Posted by 03Z33

Thanks Matt, see you out there!

Here are a few pics of the back seat bases re-installed and the carpeting installed. I don't have the foam pieces and don't plan to re-install the rear seat backrest since it needs to be trimmed and I'm planning to sell my interior complete un-modified. I'm sure someone will post pictures of the bar with the back seat trimmed eventually.

Looks good. But why bother reinstalling the rear seat bases? Just leave them out. Throw some additional carpeting back there if you want to clean it up.