CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[Lord09]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I'd like to get as much experience on the stock suspension and wheel/tire setup before making any major modifications.

Plan is to take it autocrossing at least a few times a year and hopefully finally to a track event.

Before that I'd like to get the car precisely aligned. I plan to purchase a set of SPC camber bolts for the front and SPC LCAs in the rear. The rest of the car will be stock.

Car is mostly just a fun weekend car, that's also a part time commuter (car is too fun!), so some highway stability would be nice as well. Given my intended usage, any recommendations for alignment settings?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Lord09

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I'd like to get as much experience on the stock suspension and wheel/tire setup before making any major modifications.

Plan is to take it autocrossing at least a few times a year and hopefully finally to a track event.

Before that I'd like to get the car precisely aligned. I plan to purchase a set of SPC camber bolts for the front and SPC LCAs in the rear. The rest of the car will be stock.

Car is mostly just a fun weekend car, that's also a part time commuter (car is too fun!), so some highway stability would be nice as well. Given my intended usage, any recommendations for alignment settings?

I like your plan.

Start with 0 toe front and 1/16th toe in rear. For camber start with -2.0 front and -1.75 rear. You could go with more camber, but this is a good fun commuter compromise.

- Andrew

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Lord09

Plan is to take it autocrossing at least a few times a year and hopefully finally to a track event.

Before that I'd like to get the car precisely aligned. I plan to purchase a set of SPC camber bolts for the front and SPC LCAs in the rear. The rest of the car will be stock.

Note that, as far as I know, even non-OEM camber bolts will bump you out of CS if you're running with SCCA or anyone that uses their ruleset - the LCA's will for sure. Unsure if you're concerned about this, or running a different club where these items aren't a problem. OEM camber bolts are available, and the car performs very well in CS trim. If you do care, just get OEM bolts, nothing for the rear, and max out negative camber (take it to a race shop or somewhere that knows how to maximize this legally...)

Also unsure you'll see the recommended -2 front with just one bolt each side...

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Track:

Coilovers: CSG-Spec Tein SRC
LCAs: none
Other suspension components: none
Alignment:

Front
-3 camber
0 toe

Rear
-2.4 camber (natural from ride height drop of -1.4")
0 toe

I'm answering an old post.

Is your answer still the same ?

You would use 10k/12k spring rates with semi slick tires for a road going track day car ?

What spring rates with more road friendly track tires ? (This one is for a friend) kind of 50% road 50% track car.

I do like a slight understeer, but I m more into setting it with sway bar than springs.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

I'm answering an old post.

Is your answer still the same ?

You would use 10k/12k spring rates with semi slick tires for a road going track day car ?

What spring rates with more road friendly track tires ? (This one is for a friend) kind of 50% road 50% track car.

I do like a slight understeer, but I m more into setting it with sway bar than springs.

I AutoX and road trip without passenger complaints on those rates. Also, slight understeer is as close as tweaking rebound/compression and tire pressure, as long as you're just trying to slightly bias away from balanced. I'm on stock sways, and probably have a little more negative camber in the back than I should.

9/10k are the softer rates for the SRC, if I remember the documentation and previous replies. I assume that holds for the CSG spec.

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by cjd

I AutoX and road trip without passenger complaints on those rates. Also, slight understeer is as close as tweaking rebound/compression and tire pressure, as long as you're just trying to slightly bias away from balanced. I'm on stock sways, and probably have a little more negative camber in the back than I should.

9/10k are the softer rates for the SRC, if I remember the documentation and previous replies. I assume that holds for the CSG spec.

Thanks for the answer. For you 10/12 is neutral ?

Even if I know what's neutral for you is maybe loose for me

[Lord09]

Originally Posted by cjd

Note that, as far as I know, even non-OEM camber bolts will bump you out of CS if you're running with SCCA or anyone that uses their ruleset - the LCA's will for sure. Unsure if you're concerned about this, or running a different club where these items aren't a problem. OEM camber bolts are available, and the car performs very well in CS trim. If you do care, just get OEM bolts, nothing for the rear, and max out negative camber (take it to a race shop or somewhere that knows how to maximize this legally...)

Also unsure you'll see the recommended -2 front with just one bolt each side...

I'm just going for fun, so it's not something that concerns me for now. Perhaps in the future of course.

From what I understand, I doubt I'll be able to get -2.0 in the front with the SPC bolts. Assuming I can't, should I request the alignment shop to max out the fronts and set the rears to ~.25 less?

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

Thanks for the answer. For you 10/12 is neutral ?

Even if I know what's neutral for you is maybe loose for me

I was running on cold wet pavement Saturday and had oversteer on demand via throttle. I tuned a bit out, and as we got slightly drier surface I was able to keep a nice balance.

I'm not at all comfortable with the balance and it shows in my times, but while I am more comfortable with more understeer, I'm still faster this way. I imagine the comfort comes with time - I gained a lot of confidence this weekend, partly due to the slippery conditions. I wasn't fast Sunday really, but I was able to push the envelope of my previous comfort zone from the first run, not just after a few. I need seat time, and some alignment tweaks.

tl:dr; I think balanced is balanced, and probably as fast as it can get. That probably is unrelated to your comfort zone.

C

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by cjd

I was running on cold wet pavement Saturday and had oversteer on demand via throttle. I tuned a bit out, and as we got slightly drier surface I was able to keep a nice balance.

I'm not at all comfortable with the balance and it shows in my times, but while I am more comfortable with more understeer, I'm still faster this way. I imagine the comfort comes with time - I gained a lot of confidence this weekend, partly due to the slippery conditions. I wasn't fast Sunday really, but I was able to push the envelope of my previous comfort zone from the first run, not just after a few. I need seat time, and some alignment tweaks.

tl:dr; I think balanced is balanced, and probably as fast as it can get. That probably is unrelated to your comfort zone.

C

I re watched the CSG video on YouTube with the Tein SRC at 10/12k.
For sure the car is not crazy loose. Looking at CSG Mike steering wheel inputs, I see why he likes a slightly loose setup. He got a linear steering angle increase starting on center.
Mine jump slightly then become linear, making use of the slight understeer I like and making it more neutral.

Looking at that video, I guess I can move from slight oversteer to slight understeer with sway bars and damping.

Edit: I'm concerned about corner entry oversteer. Middle and corner out are much less of a concern.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

I re watched the CSG video on YouTube with the Tein SRC at 10/12k.
For sure the car is not crazy loose. Looking at CSG Mike steering wheel inputs, I see why he likes a slightly loose setup. He got a linear steering angle increase starting on center.
Mine jump slightly then become linear, making use of the slight understeer I like and making it more neutral.

Looking at that video, I guess I can move from slight oversteer to slight understeer with sway bars and damping.

Edit: I'm concerned about corner entry oversteer. Middle and corner out are much less of a concern.

I've only approached spins adding power too early, except when I misread a gate and had way too much speed and tried to abruptly course correct. I have yet to push so far past what the car will do that I've actually spun... It didn't always feel that way, but analysing video after always proves it to be so.

I may yet tweak swaybars, but I can't imagine needing more roll resistance. It seems like the wrong place to tweak. But I'm a bench racer still when it comes to suspension, still learning what really happens vs what I think will happen.

I suspect the softer rates may be more to your liking though... Assuming my thinking bears any resemblance to reality.

I should add, this discussion is helpful to me too, forcing me to quantify and consider. Hopefully someone I trust more than me chimes in.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

I'm answering an old post.

Is your answer still the same ?

You would use 10k/12k spring rates with semi slick tires for a road going track day car ?

What spring rates with more road friendly track tires ? (This one is for a friend) kind of 50% road 50% track car.

I do like a slight understeer, but I m more into setting it with sway bar than springs.

10k/12k yields a very minor understeer. It's minor enough, that you can, at will, get the rear to kick out any time you like, but if you're approaching the limit slowly, the front will wash out first.

You can always fine tune with damper settings, tire pressures, tire stagger, braking techniques, corner entry style, and sway bars. The damper setup is designed to be extremely flexible and adaptable to virtually any (fast) driving style.

9k/10k will yield a more understeery setup, that again, can be fine tuned for the balance you prefer.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

10k/12k yields a very minor understeer. It's minor enough, that you can, at will, get the rear to kick out any time you like, but if you're approaching the limit slowly, the front will wash out first.

You can always fine tune with damper settings, tire pressures, tire stagger, braking techniques, corner entry style, and sway bars. The damper setup is designed to be extremely flexible and adaptable to virtually any (fast) driving style.

9k/10k will yield a more understeery setup, that again, can be fine tuned for the balance you prefer.

Mike, is this assuming stock geometry, or after incorporating camber adjustments? Apologies if answered above. I try to keep up but mostly skimming here.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Mike, is this assuming stock geometry, or after incorporating camber adjustments? Apologies if answered above. I try to keep up but mostly skimming here.

Not Mike (i wish i were half as fast) but... SRC come with front camber plates, and I'd hope anyone installing them would be investing in LCA or similar for rear adjustments and including a good alignment in the setup process. I know I found the price gap for these made smaller by the front adjustability included - it effectively narrowed it to below $1k. That's still a lot, but in the grand scheme of things...

I also seem to have too much rear negative camber for the way I'm using the car - not too much front though, and its at -3.3. temps and wear tell so much, even without proper tools. I neglected to budget for analysis tools this year, somehow.

I'd guess a little toe out in the back could cure the setup of understeer too.

I still can't quite get over the fact my wife has no problem knitting on road tripa with these spring rates.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by cjd

I still can't quite get over the fact my wife has no problem knitting on road trips with these spring rates.

Thanks. I stumbled into a discussion regarding a good street-worthy yet neutral setup. Sounds like our wives would get along well.