Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[Levi]

For boost and speed I would be looking at the next WRX.

[Lonewolf]

I love the fact that it the FR-S is NA.

Power is predictable, and the engine power output is not as susceptible to temperature fluctuations and atmospheric variations as forced induction.

Though power gains are usually harder and more expensive to come by, I prefer NA over forced induction.

Also, there aren't many FI cars (MKIV Supra, Whipple'd Terminator Cobra excepted) that have a nice sound.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I love the fact that it the FR-S is NA.

Power is predictable, and the engine power output is not as susceptible to temperature fluctuations and atmospheric variations as forced induction.

Though power gains are usually harder and more expensive to come by, I prefer NA over forced induction.

Also, there aren't many FI cars (MKIV Supra, Whipple'd Terminator Cobra excepted) that have a nice sound.

the output being susceptible to more variables isnt a good argument since a heat soaked turbo car is still going to be more powerful than a natrually aspirated variant (in a model to model or dollar to dollar kind of way)

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the output being susceptible to more variables isnt a good argument since a heat soaked turbo car is still going to be more powerful than a natrually aspirated variant (in a model to model or dollar to dollar kind of way)

It's not a question of fast. It's a question of predictable. "When I push this throttle, I get the same response every time" goes a long way towards being fast and consistent around a track. When you go out to an autocross or a track day, one of the worst feelings is knowing that you had a clean lap and fixed all of the mistakes you were making earlier in the day, but ultimately turned a slower time because of heat issues. Just in my M3 I've gone from pumping my fist in the air in excitement to slapping my helmet (upon actually seeing my time) just over my tires. I couldn't imagine adding any other factors to the mix.

[chulooz]

Temp variations in tires at an autocross are a different example from turbo heat soak issues; if the whole set is working properly then there shouldnt be any negative affects during use. If you motor is running right you should get the same response from the throttle every time in any setup.

Unfortunately many turbo setups are prone to heat soak issues due to inefficient design.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the output being susceptible to more variables isnt a good argument since a heat soaked turbo car is still going to be more powerful than a natrually aspirated variant (in a model to model or dollar to dollar kind of way)

Absolutely not true. I have personally driven turbo cars who are way down on power because of extreme heat, while NA cars on the same track (and the same day) are only mildly affected.

I have also personally witnessed dyno sessions on muggy days where modded Evo's are making 210 whp, and near stock Mustang GT's (The old 4.6 V8) are making 260 whp on the same dyno.

I don't make blanket statements without personal experience.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Absolutely not true. I have personally driven turbo cars who are way down on power because of extreme heat, while NA cars on the same track (and the same day) are only mildly affected.

I have also personally witnessed dyno sessions on muggy days where modded Evo's are making 210 whp, and near stock Mustang GT's (The old 4.6 V8) are making 260 whp on the same dyno.

I don't make blanket statements without personal experience.

you are missing the message. i get that at certain points a mustang is going to be faster than an evo even if we simply ignore the fact that the mustang is likely not stock and there is awd robbing the evo motor of power or the extra 2.4 liters in your example. im saying that an engine is going to be faster when its turboed. a heat soaked engine is going to be faster than if you took the turbo off. having forced intuduction is faster than not having it

[Blokatos]

To all the turbo lovers out there:

You are missing Toyota's/Subaru's point. This car is not a Veyron competitor! It is about driving. Even if the car had turbo, the power hungry would still complain and asking for more boost, more torque, etc. etc. There is always going to be something faster in a straight line unless you build something that outperforms the Bugatti Veyron. Being a MX5 owner, I can assure you that there were some times I missed having a bit more power but that doesn't change the fact that I admire the reliable-as-a-brick character of the MX5's engine.
Bob Hall has said that "if you can't go fast with 90 whp, 900 whp won't help you".
Having a rwd sports car with performance around Civic Type-R's territory is great news for all the sports car enthusiasts out there.
I know many who bought a MX5, put a turbo or a supercharger on it, and after a few months they sold it. They couldn't satisfy their power hunger. They have bought the wrong car in the first place. Those who kept MX5's for years and all the people I know who still got it, they keep it N/A.
They got Mazda's point...

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you are missing the message. i get that at certain points a mustang is going to be faster than an evo even if we simply ignore the fact that the mustang is likely not stock and there is awd robbing the evo motor of power or the extra 2.4 liters in your example. im saying that an engine is going to be faster when its turboed. a heat soaked engine is going to be faster than if you took the turbo off. having forced intuduction is faster than not having it

I thought that you were saying that heat/altitude affected turbo cars that are down on power are still going to make relatively more power than NA rivals in the same setting (which is not necessarily true). My mistake for the misinterpretation of your point...

Regardless, forced induction does generally give more power on a specific motor, than a version of the motor without forced induction, but the extra power usually comes at the expense of added cost, complexity, weight, heat, engine stress, and reduced longevity. I love winding up a balanced, high-revving motor and hearing it scream(my neighbor's Integra Type R )...although that doesn't really seem to be the characteristic of the FR-S motor.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I thought that you were saying that heat/altitude affected turbo cars that are down on power are still going to make relatively more power than NA rivals in the same setting (which is not necessarily true). My mistake for the misinterpretation of your point...

Regardless, forced induction does generally give more power on a specific motor, than a version of the motor without forced induction, but the extra power usually comes at the expense of added cost, complexity, weight, heat, engine stress, and reduced longevity. I love winding up a balanced, high-revving motor and hearing it scream(my neighbor's Integra Type R )...although that doesn't really seem to be the characteristic of the FR-S motor.

i figured that was the case but even if we examine the flip side of the coin, a turbo engine is likely to be smaller, lighter and often more efficient than a larger displacement motor to rival its power.

im not saying that this car should be turboed. im just saying that there is alot of hate for the stuff because its not pure or whatever and it seems like people are still talking about it like its the early 90s and you could make the same amount of power with n/a as you can with fi...sad to say but in todays market, things like itbs are stupid

[Levi]

Hey, I think we should have thread for the ones that only want a NA Toyobaru. In this case we'll know who are these members and discuss anything about the NA engine, without that the turbo fans come up and turn everything in a turbo debate. Why do all turbo lovers want to convert us?

[Dimman]

Bump for a little bit of strange insight. Read in a mag (can't remember whether it was Race Tech or Racecar Engineering, I'll post correct one and issue later) that when the BTCC decided to go from the old S2000 formula (2.0L NA) to a new one using 2.0L turbos (instead of the 1.6L turbos in Europe and the new S2000 formula) they had to decide on some form of parity between the motors during a transition time.

The consensus was that the new 2.0L turbos would need about 15 hp (~5%) MORE hp to match the speed of the old 2.0L NA motors in the SAME chassis.

Interesting, but when you think of it the low rpm torque advantage of the turbo will not come into play as much in a racing environment where the cars are driven full out and kept in their powerbands as much as possible. And in this case the lag/poor response and lack of engine braking (?, cited in the article) are detrimental.

(Also remember that lag is just not related to the rpm for the engine to make boost, but also the time it takes to pressurize the intake tract/manifold as well as time needed accelerating the turbo on throttle application even if rpm is high.)

[Homemade WRX]

^^^um, restrictor racing...last I checked, street cars don't have them

A 2.0L NA 4-cyl with be destroyed by a 2.0L turbo 4-cyl when restrictors aren't used to level the playing field.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

^^^um, restrictor racing...last I checked, street cars don't have them

A 2.0L NA 4-cyl with be destroyed by a 2.0L turbo 4-cyl when restrictors aren't used to level the playing field.

Obviously. Plus they don't have actual restrictor plates. They have strict limits on modifications to stock components.

However the point is that for similar power levels on the same size engine, the NA is superior.

This car was not built to unlimited spec levels. 200 bhp was likely chosen early in the design phase, and this BTCC example shows that 200 NA hp can be superior to 200 turbocharged hp, even with the same displacement. And this would be a more significant gap were we talking about 200 bhp NA 2.0L vs 200 bhp turbo 1.6L.

Also, the boost on the turbo cars is low, and despite that the lag is still significant enough to be deemed a disadvantage. (Honda engine in the series is 1.4 bar absolute, so ~6psi gauge.)