Ford Fiesta ST Beats Toyota GT86 on the Track in EVO Test

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

If you value things like steering feel and a lack of torque steer than yes it is inferior. It's inferior because it's a severely unbalanced car from a physics point of view.

And I'd like to see how well these electronic brake modulation e-Diffs work when your brakes are starting to fade on a road course.

Not well. Mk6 GTIs have XDS, which is the same thing, i.e., braking the inside drive wheel to simulate a LSD. When you drive hard on the stock pads, XDS contributes to brake fade. Doesn't have to be on the track, happens in aggressive street driving as well.

E-diffs aren't anything new, they've been around for a few years now.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

If you value things like steering feel and a lack of torque steer than yes it is inferior. It's inferior because it's a severely unbalanced car from a physics point of view.

And I'd like to see how well these electronic brake modulation e-Diffs work when your brakes are starting to fade on a road course.

But that is the thing that is killing me. The Fiesta ST and some of the other mentioned FWD cars on this have proven to be fun to drive, despite physics.

The general consensus on this forum is that the car cannot be fun because it is FWD by a bunch of people who have never driven the Fiesta ST. Just an auto-response of, it is FWD, thus it is inferior to my RWD car. <-This is what I mean when I say RWD-Elitists. It reminds me of the BMW people. I don't care how cool people say it is, or how fast it is, or how fun it is, it is not a BMW so it is inferior to my BMW. I hate this kind of response. I hate it when AWD people do it. I hate it when BMW people do it. And I hate it when people on this forum do it.

Also, 85% of the cars on this forum will never see a track...

[topazsparrow]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

But that is the thing that is killing me. The Fiesta ST and some of the other mentioned FWD cars on this have proven to be fun to drive, despite physics.

The general consensus on this forum is that the car cannot be fun because it is FWD by a bunch of people who have never driven the Fiesta ST. Just an auto-response of, it is FWD, thus it is inferior to my RWD car. <-This is what I mean when I say RWD-Elitists. It reminds me of the BMW people. I don't care how cool people say it is, or how fast it is, or how fun it is, it is not a BMW so it is inferior to my BMW. I hate this kind of response. I hate it when AWD people do it. I hate it when BMW people do it. And I hate it when people on this forum do it.

Also, 85% of the cars on this forum will never see a track...

That's exactly why you will not get a rational discussion or comparison here. There's more than that also.

1) People are going to want to defend and validate their 30k purchase. That will happen with nearly all car owners

2) People that visit these forums didn't buy the car because it was just transportation and they happened upon a dealer that was selling one. They bought it because for them, THIS is the car they wanted and thought was the best. If they thought another car was better for the price, they would have bought it.

It might be that other cars are better, but if they really chose to believe that then they likely would have bought another car.


TL;DR:
This is a horrible place to have a conversation like this and it's always going to be extremely one sided for the reason listed above.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by thill

The tires are clearly a major factor and anyone who is remotely serious about tracking the car will know the Primacy tires were never made for lap times. They are made for breaking traction so you can slide the car...

See, I find this funny. Because we will spend all day arguing with someone about how the car is set up to be fun, not fast, hence the tires. And then we will argue with people about how the track times are BS because of the tires....

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by topazsparrow

That's exactly why you will not get a rational discussion or comparison here. There's more than that also.

1) People are going to want to defend and validate their 30k purchase. That will happen with nearly all car owners

2) People that visit these forums didn't buy the car because it was just transportation and they happened upon a dealer that was selling one. They bought it because for them, THIS is the car they wanted and thought was the best. If they thought another car was better for the price, they would have bought it.

It might be that other cars are better, but if they really chose to believe that then they likely would have bought another car.


TL;DR:
This is a horrible place to have a conversation like this and it's always going to be extremely one sided for the reason listed above.

I agree with everything you just said. I just don't want to be one of those people so I can either argue with the above mentioned people or just ignore it. Most of the time I ignore it, sometimes I want to argue though.

I bought the FR-S because I wanted a light RWD car that I could drive to work every day and then drive to autocross and be competitive. I have yet to even slightly doubt my decision.

That said, I also don't feel the need to look down on every FWD car ever made now that I own a RWD car.

[thill]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

See, I find this funny. Because we will spend all day arguing with someone about how the car is set up to be fun, not fast, hence the tires. And then we will argue with people about how the track times are BS because of the tires....

Well the thread is focused on tracking the cars. The video spends the first 3 minutes talking about how crappy the tires are... I don't see why it would not be applicable. If the thread is about which car is better for drifting, then yeah Primacy tires all the way.

It is ridiculously easy to break traction on the Primacy tires. I can pretty much do it at will with full traction control on. And heck yeah it is fun! But I would never bring the Primacy tires to the track if I am doing timed laps against other cars.. That would be like showing up to play competitive football on a wet natural grass field with basketball shoes on..

[thill]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

But that is the thing that is killing me. The Fiesta ST and some of the other mentioned FWD cars on this have proven to be fun to drive, despite physics.

The general consensus on this forum is that the car cannot be fun because it is FWD by a bunch of people who have never driven the Fiesta ST. Just an auto-response of, it is FWD, thus it is inferior to my RWD car. <-This is what I mean when I say RWD-Elitists. It reminds me of the BMW people. I don't care how cool people say it is, or how fast it is, or how fun it is, it is not a BMW so it is inferior to my BMW. I hate this kind of response. I hate it when AWD people do it. I hate it when BMW people do it. And I hate it when people on this forum do it.

Also, 85% of the cars on this forum will never see a track...

I have owned and driven lots of fun FWD cars. In fact, the Speed3 is still one of those really raw cars that will put a smile on my face everytime I drive one. It is just a blast to drive, torque steer and all.

I have no doubt that the Fiesta ST (like the Focus ST I drove) is a blast to drive. I can 100% see why someone who needs a slightly more useable backseat buys one.

That said, even after multiple test drives of a Focus ST, Speed 3, WRX, and GTI, I bought the BRZ. None of them, for me, were the drivers car the BRZ was. Faster? Yes. But you can easily add power to the FT86 platform if you want. Surprisingly, I am still reluctant to, well, because I am still not sure I need it or want it.

[ayau]

The OEM tires are great to learn on if you're a novice driver. Sticky tires will cover up a lot of driving mistakes. You can have fast lap times but still be a terrible driver.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The fiesta isn't the only fwd car to beat the BRZ round a track. Not available in America but is popular in Europe: the Renault Clio and of course the R26.

The reason the newer hot hatches are so quick is the trick front diff. By transferring torque from the outside wheel to the inside wheel (Torsen) or by braking the inside wheel (electronic) so as to divert torque to the loaded outside wheel more cornering ability is extracted. Either way more of the available total torque hits the road.

Also, the rear roll stiffness is enhanced to allow as much load as possible to transfer to the outside rear wheel. In the old days this trick was applied to the front axles of standard cars set up for track work: BMW 2002, Alfa Romeo GTV and Ford Escorts were all famous for lifting the inside front wheel just as hot hatches lift their inside rear wheel. For the same reason but to compensate for drive at the other end of the car.

There is something not quite right in the BRZ rear suspension. It seems to roll oversteer at the limits of grip or perhaps the Torsen drives too much torque across the rear axles too abruptly. Anyway, I get snap oversteer when I'm not really expecting it, oddly with the traction control on. With the traction control completely off the car exhibits progressive behaviour at least so far. I've experienced oversteer only on lower friction surfaces with traction control off and the body roll has not been a significant factor. Under those conditions the chassis is benign.

I have no doubt that the BRZ could be quicker than a hot hatch but as they come from the factory they are much slower. And it isn't just the tires.

What Fiesta beat the BRZ? You mean the FRS. Which explains the rear suspension which is softer for more oversteer. Just watch how much faster the BRZ is on the same track using my video compared to the FRS they used in the Fiesta comparison on the same track w/ slower drivers. You are confusing the details.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

But that is the thing that is killing me. The Fiesta ST and some of the other mentioned FWD cars on this have proven to be fun to drive, despite physics.

The general consensus on this forum is that the car cannot be fun because it is FWD by a bunch of people who have never driven the Fiesta ST. Just an auto-response of, it is FWD, thus it is inferior to my RWD car. <-This is what I mean when I say RWD-Elitists. It reminds me of the BMW people. I don't care how cool people say it is, or how fast it is, or how fun it is, it is not a BMW so it is inferior to my BMW. I hate this kind of response. I hate it when AWD people do it. I hate it when BMW people do it. And I hate it when people on this forum do it.

Also, 85% of the cars on this forum will never see a track...

Sorry if there's a misunderstanding here (with me at least). Is a Fiesta ST fun to drive? I don't know from personal experience but I would guess yes! Would it be even more fun to drive if it was RWD? Totally hypothetical since no RWD hot hatches exist but I'll again say yes probably!

During one season of autoxing my GS-R I had Hoosier slicks on the front wheels and all season Bridgestones on the rear. You better believe that lift throttle oversteer was a lot O fun

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

But that is the thing that is killing me. The Fiesta ST and some of the other mentioned FWD cars on this have proven to be fun to drive, despite physics.

My 13 year old Prius is fun to drive! Because I don't drive like a bitch and it has no sway bars and a tall CoG. I slide that bitch around all the time. There's only one car I've owned that spent more time on two wheels. That's fun. Nobody said FWD wasn't fun. Just not superior or equal for lowest track times when all things are equal. Ceteris Parabis.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Nobody said FWD wasn't fun.

That's not really true. I'd rather not go back through the thread though and find everyone that either implied it or flat out said it.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

That's not really true. I'd rather not go back through the thread though and find everyone that either implied it or flat out said it.

Well then, we can agree they were wrong. I never took any posts to mean that in this thread but I'm not sensitive to it either. I care more about claims wrt physics than what someone 'thinks' or 'feels' about X or Y. Besides, it really wasn't the point of the OP anyway if people want to extrapolate such a claim.

All sorts of cars are fun for different reasons. Hell, I've had weird thoughts about doing strange things to an IQ.

[topazsparrow]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

What Fiesta beat the BRZ? You mean the FRS. Which explains the rear suspension which is softer for more oversteer. Just watch how much faster the BRZ is on the same track using my video...

The rear suspension is exactly the same. It's the front spring rate that is every so slightly different. Where are you getting your information from??? Are you seriously trying to argue that the BRZ is anything but on-par with an FRS on a track? It's almost exactly the same car. The BRZ pushes more and the FRS is traditionally more neutral. The difference is hardly enough to make up for a fraction of a second in either direction.