This is not a winter car! Fed up! May end up selling...

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I'm not unhappy with the car.

I find the winter handling to be ridiculously incompetent. Unnecessarily so and designed this way to amuse inexperienced drivers.

Everyone who knows anything about driving fast knows that this car has a poor suspension specification. The first thing such drivers do is fit better tires but that doesn't fix the balance problem. It just oversteers too easily and you have to work way too hard to get it to drive properly.

Some say this is fun, I find it tediously incompetent. Its fun for the odd "canyon run" as the Californians like to call it but, really, it is puerile entertainment and ultimately unsatisfying. It could easily be so much better. More fun for a serious driver.

If you want a car for a serious driver, then buy an M3… You bought a car that was promoted as "tail happy" with it's commercials showing large amounts of oversteer, as a "lawyer" you should know; 1) that no one made you buy it and YOU bought it accepting the car how it was 2) A "defect" is an unintended abnormality in a predesigned and tested product, not an intended design.

As for OP, you bought a small light weight car rear wheel drive bias, i personally think the car performs great relative to these characteristics but i also planned ahead and bought a SUV for when the snow is heavy… You're logic can be extrapolated to someone who buys an iPod expecting it to make you breakfast in the morning…

I've noticed that i'm getting a mark on my forehead from the amount of face palming this forum has been causing me lately…

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Canehda

If you want a car for a serious driver, then buy an M3…

I've noticed that i'm getting a mark on my forehead from the amount of face palming this forum has been causing me lately…

Why would I buy a tail happy M3 in preference to a tail happy BRZ?

That mark on your forehead may not be from your hand, it might be congenital. Ask your mother.

[that_guy]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

yeah man, I flipped my all-ways for 2 blinks as a wave


yeah so far the ding's grown on me, it's been there for over a year... sorta as a reminder not to do the stupid thing I did to get it (at 2km/h of all things)


but I think it scares people off, they see a banged up car they give it room, thinking the driver might not be paying attention.

Yep, caught the wave. Might not have caught anything from me as the salt on the car seems to have tinted it.

I have to agree though, the dent would scare some people away. I on the other hand just figured it was the result of some careless hooning.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Funny you should say that because that's what Subaru actually did for the BRZ and it is quicker than the FRS.

Wrong, and wrong.

First, the sway bars are identical, the BRZ runs different spring rates than the FRS, but only slightly different.

Second, Motortrend is the only publication to claim the BRZ is faster around a track. And even in that article the reviews talk about how balanced they both are. They also claimed the steering is heavier in the BRZ (which it isn't) and that the engine in the BRZ felt stronger than the FRS. It's entirely possible that out of their test cars the BRZ was faster because the FRS had a dud engine or the BRZ had a stronger than usual engine.

Everyone else seems to find the FRS faster than the BRZ.

Here's another perspective:

http://www.onehotlap.com/2013/01/the...-s-or-brz.html

Notice the word "plows", that's not fast at all.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Wrong, and wrong.

First, the sway bars are identical, the BRZ runs different spring rates than the FRS, but only slightly different.

Second, Motortrend is the only publication to claim the BRZ is faster around a track. And even in that article the reviews talk about how balanced they both are. They also claimed the steering is heavier in the BRZ (which it isn't) and that the engine in the BRZ felt stronger than the FRS. It's entirely possible that out of their test cars the BRZ was faster because the FRS had a dud engine or the BRZ had a stronger than usual engine.

Everyone else seems to find the FRS faster than the BRZ.

Here's another perspective:

http://www.onehotlap.com/2013/01/the...-s-or-brz.html

Notice the word "plows", that's not fast at all.

You looked, you looked.

Yes, in fact the BRZ has stiffer front springs and softer rear springs. This has exactly the same effect on cornering as a stiffer front bar would have, which the aftermarket will also provide you if you wish to go hard on the track. Interestingly, the Toyota GT86 has different springs from either according to a post on this board. The GT 86 is somewhere in between our FRS and BRZ.

Most publications find the stock BRZ to be quicker. The link you posted confirms everything I say. Note he doesn't go so far as to claim the FRS is quicker, he's apparently not a complete idiot. I absolutely love his comparison of the FRS to the BMW 2002, one of the worst handling small cars ever foisted on the general public. How bad was it? Undrivable in winter and any contemporary Alfa Romeo would blast past it in the corners (live axle and all ) because the 2002 suffered from terrible oversteer, as did all BMW before they finally ditched their antiquated semi-trailing arm suspension for a proper multi link setup in the 1992 model year, almost bought one of those but it was hilariously incompetent in winter so I bought another Alfa instead, far superior car for less money.

You missed the point (again) that both are slower than necessary. You should probably change your signature I think people are starting to laugh at you as a self confessed dimwit.

Understeer is quicker, everybody knows that. Occasionally you may find a track with one or two corners where understeer isn't beneficial but that is rare. And anyway, I'm talking about street driving. And in winter to boot. Understeer doesn't hold back this car in winter, but the silly ease with which this car oversteers under power does make it a crap winter car.

Got any ice dicing videos?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Most publications find the stock BRZ to be quicker. The link you posted confirms everything I say.

Which publications? I can't find a single one besides motor trend's one test that finds it quicker.

How does this quote confirm anything you have said?

Originally Posted by Article

So the more experienced driver will appreciate the FR-S more and it can be a handful at the limit. It's nothing that quick hands and throttle input can’t correct! The Suburu version acts like a AWD Suburu: it plows! The understeer is light but it still plows at the limit.

.
.
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TWO GRIPES ONLY
There are only two minor faults with the FR-S:

1. The OEM tires stink. Michelin Primacy? Heck, those are on the Prius! I waited until the All Season Bridgestones were available (the FR-S is my daily driver after all).
2. It screams for about 50-75 more HP. There are all kinds of SC and Turbo kits popping up on the market. There will also be many more variants coming out in the years to come built on this platform. An STi, a TRD, maybe even a SUPRA.

Easy to drive fast and what is ultimately fastest are not the same thing. If you want a car that anyone can drive fast get a GTR, these cars are designed to reward skilled drivers, not be fast in grandma's hands.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Understeer is quicker, everybody knows that. Occasionally you may find a track with one or two corners where understeer isn't beneficial but that is rare.

Quoted in case you edit this. I'd LOVE to see any good driver claiming that understeer is faster. If that was the case, then FWD cars would be king. The only thing beneficial about understeer is that it's not as scary for novice drivers.

Originally Posted by Suberman

And anyway, I'm talking about street driving. And in winter to boot. Understeer doesn't hold back this car in winter, but the silly ease with which this car oversteers under power does make it a crap winter car.

Keep your foot out of the throttle and it won't oversteer. Stop blaming the car because you can't control the throttle well enough. Maybe you should trade your car in for a Corolla, it seems to fit your driving style better.

Some more reading for you: http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013...oversteer.html

http://www.racer.com/racer-special-f...rticle/219407/

The more oversteer a driver is comfortable with, the quicker the setup he can run. McLaren's technical director Paddy Lowe explains further: “We see from the data that Lewis [Hamilton] is fantastic at controlling oversteer. He can have massive levels of steering correction – to the extent that other drivers would be bitching like hell that the car was undrivable – and Lewis won't even mention it. With a driver like that, you're better equipped to push the boundaries to new levels.

[that_guy]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Understeer is quicker, everybody knows that. Occasionally you may find a track with one or two corners where understeer isn't beneficial but that is rare. And anyway, I'm talking about street driving. And in winter to boot. Understeer doesn't hold back this car in winter, but the silly ease with which this car oversteers under power does make it a crap winter car.

HAHAHA. You lost all credibility right there with that statement....not that you had any to lose by this point anyways, but I think you get the point...(or do you?).

Understeer is NOT faster and no one races ever attempts to set their car up to achieve it.

This car is easy to drive in winter, regardless of ice, snow, slush, etc. It is no different than any other car when properly equipped with tires. If your having difficulty, I would suggest trying a winter driving school to become more confident behind the wheel. If your finding it constantly oversteering then you either have garbage winter tires or a heavy foot. I'm going to assume the later but then again, both could be contributors...

[s2d4]

^
Brain capacity could be lacking too.

[Hardy]

I started out with the intent of posting in this thread, but then somewhere along the way it went so sideways that I think I'll pass.

Ahh, who am I kidding! My BRZ loves the snow! And there's been absolutely no shortage of it this year where I'm at. It only stayed parked 1 day so far, but every road in 3 counties was declared impassable by the OPP. Life in Bruce county!

[wparsons]

^^ They don't mess around with roads up there! If the OPP says the road is closed, it's usually really bad. I've driven through high winds, blowing snow and 5-6" of loose stuff on the roads and they didn't even think about closing the roads then.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Understeer is quicker, everybody knows that.
Got any ice dicing videos?

lol....

[Dipstik-sportech]

I might have some ice dicing vids. I'll have to check.

The Frozen North

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Why would I buy a tail happy M3 in preference to a tail happy BRZ?

Because an M3 isn't tail happy, it has a lot of power which can make it seem tail happy but if you put enough power into any car that has more than 50% wheel rear drive bias capability it can seem tail happy...

[Suberman]

The more power you're trying to put down the more understeer you need. In fact, that is the major problem with this car. Even at the modest power available it still power oversteers. In enter this becomes a terminal problem.

Gentlemen this is just elementary suspension physics.

In fact, a F1 car understeers terribly in hairpins. It goes neutral only under basically full power and full downforce.

I mean do any of you watch the onboard camera shots in F1?

Do any of you read up on suspensions and how they work? Can some of you who aren't getting it read this stuff and actually understand it?