Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[bigbcraig]

I feel like this car really isn't designed to compete with the Mustang / Genesis / Z, but instead people were on target comparing it to the new Si and the GTI, and perhaps the MX-5.
The FR-S isn't going to be big on power but instead will be a sharp-handling, cheap car. The insurance shouldn't be anywhere near the newer powerful coupes. Furthermore, the FR-S is supposed to me much smaller than them - like 11" shorter than the GC right?
So the way I see it is as an entry-level performance car, similar to the Si and GTI - something that has to be pretty practical and drivable, that's exciting but not so fast it'll be a ticket magnet, have really high insurance, or really low mileage.


So, lets just imagine there was a magazine comparison between the GTI, new Si, FR-S, and perhaps the Miata. (Based on my experiences driving each of GTI, last-gen Si, and MX-5 a little)

The Si has 201hp and 170hp. It drives quite well, feels surprisingly light and flingable, and isn't too unrefined to drive others in. It costs about $22,500.

The GTI has a torquier turbo motor, a much nicer interior, and feels pretty heavy for its size and a bit number than the Si. Probably just a bit slower in a drag race but feels more planted overall driving and passengers will probably be impressed with the interior. Costs about $24,000. Has a reputation of being not entirely reliable.

The Miata starts at $23,100 but to get an LSD, better dampers, and a 6 speed, you'd need a Touring that costs $25,500. It's a little slower than the first two and is way smaller inside, with little practicality for carrying your stuff or passengers. On the other hand, it drives like a dream - more precise than the other two, very very rarely feels like a cheap chassis like both the Si and GTI do sometimes, and is really balanced plus driving RWD at even a slightly enthusiastic manner feels better as the chassis feels it's helping you instead of trying to slow you down with understeer (or at least push) and wheelspin (or at least non-confidence-inspiring shimmying as it runs out of grip) exiting corners.

-So, the Miata drives great but loses the comparison because it really isn't practical enough for anyone but a hardcore enthusiast to have as their only car.
-The Civic is a bit cheaper, sharper, and quicker. Probably a better choice for the person who wants to autocross more than enjoy cruising down the highway and impress people with their car.
-The GTI is more comfortable, has a really impressive interior, and a little more expensive. It drives really nice up to 8/10s or so where it feels soft and heavy. The turbo motor means cheap, refined power. Best for the person who will spend a little more money for a nicer everyday drive, and would rather have lots of power, man, and impress people with their nice interior but is less likely to enter in competition with the car.

The way I see it, the FT has just a few options.
*It has to drive really well: crisp and precise, balanced, and without murmurs of cheapness in the chassis. Seeing as the chassis has been in development for several years by two big companies, this has to be accomplished and is pretty plausible.

*It has to be practical. The rear seats don't need to hold anyone more than 30 minutes but for 2 it has to be comfortable for driving all day every day (equal to a civic or GTI, don't need a Benz here) and it needs the trunkroom for whatever you carry to work and moderate grocery shopping. I don't think this will be a 2nd car for many of the target audience. This is what drives me away from the MX-5.

*It has to have rock-solid reliability.

It can either be:
- cheap, at the most $21,000, drive really well, and lose a drag race with the Si and GTI by a little. Then, I think 180-200hp is OK but it has to have a great chassis, well-tuned suspension, and (to stick out from the Si, coupe=2877#), weigh under 2800#, if not high 26-low27xx.
^Wouldn't you take a slightly slower, slightly smaller Si if it felt balanced and RWD?, for the same price?

-The same or a smidgen more than the GTI, at the very most $25,xxx like the MX-5 Touring, and be a bit quicker than all the cars, feel great to drive, and be a pretty nice car to be inside (I'm thinking RX-8 interior - not plush, but not at all cheap looking. GTI would still be a bit nicer).
^Wouldn't you pay a small premium to have a sportier, slightly quicker car that is still everyday-practical and cheap to own?


The problem with the latter is that then it would be equal-price competing with a GC, and though the GC would have higher ownership costs (Lower mileage and higher insurance), people would be very tempted to step up to it.

It makes sense for this to be quite light and performance oriented, because the tC is already Scion's go-to answer for a slightly cheaper Civic that isn't really performance-minded but is an OK looking coupe and a bit different.

Tl;dr: I don't see the FR-S competing with the other coupes in the market, but with the entry-level sporty cars of the Civic Si, GTI, and perhaps Miata.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Dimman

At the same time it's a little bit insulting to us common people that they spent 9 freakin' years developing the insane, mega $$$ LFA, just so they could sell like 600 of them to people who wouldn't be caught dead in a Corolla...

They OWE the Toyota performance fans for that slap in the face.

$19k, Toyota. Do it.

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

/signed

/sealed...

AND

They owe it to N/A fans for branding it a Scion.

F'n Delivered :happy0180:

[PAImportTuner]

Push come to shove, I'm gonna say screw Scion and Subaru and get a new MINI COOPER S COUPE.

This car is crazy, has 2 wings, one on roof and an active aero wing like Porsche/Audi TT that comes up at 50mph on the hatch and just for the price of $22k starting. It's 181hp177tq TURBO and ~2600#.

Although FWD IDGAF, it will be fun, light and turbo.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Push come to shove, I'm gonna say screw Scion and Subaru and get a new MINI COOPER S COUPE.

This car is crazy, has 2 wings, one on roof and an active aero wing like Porsche/Audi TT that comes up at 50mph on the hatch and just for the price of $22k starting. It's 181hp177tq TURBO and ~2600#.

Although FWD IDGAF, it will be fun, light and turbo.

Definitely look cool and sounds nice on paper, but those Mini interiors are fuuuugly. I hate that giant big ben speedo (or is it a tach? I don't remember.).

[bofa]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Push come to shove, I'm gonna say screw Scion and Subaru and get a new MINI COOPER S COUPE.

This car is crazy, has 2 wings, one on roof and an active aero wing like Porsche/Audi TT that comes up at 50mph on the hatch and just for the price of $22k starting. It's 181hp177tq TURBO and ~2600#.

Although FWD IDGAF, it will be fun, light and turbo.

Certainly tempting

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

^^ Are those numbers for the 2013 genesis coupe solidly confirmed or speculation?

Pure Speculation. The only confirmed engine is the upgraded V6. Yes, it's likely to get an upgraded 4cyl as well.. just how upgraded is the question.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Definitely look cool and sounds nice on paper, but those Mini interiors are fuuuugly. I hate that giant big ben speedo (or is it a tach? I don't remember.).

The FT86 interior could be fugly too, which is subjective. I considered the spy interior mofugly..

The headlight are sharp, tails are round, interior looks blocky with the overall exterior is a mess. TheMmini style flows in and out with the car.

HERE IS TO EYE GOUGING YOU!!! LOL

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Good call on the RWD Toyotas... Ever heard of this little company called Lexus? IS250 is available with (shock!) a close ratio 6 speed manual or a 6 speed paddle shifting automatic. And I would bet money that they are made by Aisin. Oh, and an LSD.

Subaru designed this engine from the beginning to be upgradeable to direct injection, and has a history of making vastly different heads (actually entire motors) for the same 'number'. It was something likely already planned for with the new gen boxer.

No major mechanical parts (that we have heard about so far) are low volume/unique to this car, and that's where one of the primary costs come from.

yes you already mentioned the is250. care to name more? how many is250's are made and sold vs a camry or corolla? that was my point. not if toyota made any FR cars at all....

yes, but again. designing the block to be modular or whatever doesnt mean it doesnt take time and money to develop, adapt, and test new heads, pistons, rods, etc. just because a part already exists, doesnt mean you dont have to test it and see if it works as a package. its not that simple.

as an example, look at the bmw 1M. its basically a 135i with the upgraded Z4 engine and the M3 suspension bits & LSD. yet it took quite a while for them to develop. it has to carry an M badge and that means it has to work as a total package. the same can be said with the FT, toyota's new age sports coupe. sure it uses some existing parts, but they have to make sure it all works together...

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by madfast

yes you already mentioned the is250. care to name more? how many is250's are made and sold vs a camry or corolla? that was my point. not if toyota made any FR cars at all....

yes, but again. designing the block to be modular or whatever doesnt mean it doesnt take time and money to develop, adapt, and test new heads, pistons, rods, etc. just because a part already exists, doesnt mean you dont have to test it and see if it works as a package. its not that simple.

as an example, look at the bmw 1M. its basically a 135i with the upgraded Z4 engine and the M3 suspension bits & LSD. yet it took quite a while for them to develop. it has to carry an M badge and that means it has to work as a total package. the same can be said with the FT, toyota's new age sports coupe. sure it uses some existing parts, but they have to make sure it all works together...

For underlined: You are making excuses for why you think it should cost more.. as a consumer you should not argue wanting the cost of the car to be higher or even expect it to be higher, you're not being realistic. Or else you'd sound like Dimman or me on this topic.


Also can't compare BMW with Toyota especially in pricing and packaging. That's a whole different ballgame, BMW will always charge a arm and leg for M package or options. First BMW is a premium brand you don't need it, you want it in BASE or mid-grade fine. You definitely don't need the M if you already got the 135i series which is i6TT over the base 128i. If you want the mighty M you're gonna have to pay for it big time, it's a motorsports premium plus kinda car BUT it's only a $7k premium.

Toyota does not have that pricing impact. Scion pushes this somewhat but it attacks the idiot ricers who will pay $10k in accessories/mods, real speed enthusiast or racers don't fall for that sh*t.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Push come to shove, I'm gonna say screw Scion and Subaru and get a new MINI COOPER S COUPE.

This car is crazy, has 2 wings, one on roof and an active aero wing like Porsche/Audi TT that comes up at 50mph on the hatch and just for the price of $22k starting. It's 181hp177tq TURBO and ~2600#.

Although FWD IDGAF, it will be fun, light and turbo.

Your numbers are a little mixed up. The version that you get for $22k is the base Cooper with a N/A 1.6L making 121 hp. To get the 181 hp version, you have to step up to the $25,300 Cooper S. The 208 hp JCW Coupe is $31,900.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...-at-22000.html


Just an observation, but it seems like you're not really a fan of the FT-86. You don't like the looks, the interior, the power, the weight, or the price, and yet you still come here and post everyday. Why?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

For underlined: You are making excuses for why you think it should cost more.. as a consumer you should not argue wanting the cost of the car to be higher or even expect it to be higher, you're not being realistic. Or else you'd sound like Dimman or me on this topic.


Also can't compare BMW with Toyota especially in pricing and packaging. That's a whole different ballgame, BMW will always charge a arm and leg for M package or options. First BMW is a premium brand you don't need it, you want it in BASE or mid-grade fine. You definitely don't need the M if you already got the 135i series which is i6TT over the base 128i. If you want the mighty M you're gonna have to pay for it big time, it's a motorsports premium plus kinda car BUT it's only a $7k premium.

Toyota does not have that pricing impact. Scion pushes this somewhat but it attacks the idiot ricers who will pay $10k in accessories/mods, real speed enthusiast or racers don't fall for that sh*t.

LOL i dont WANT the car to be more expensive, i just understand why it may be more expensive. y'all here saying this thing should come in under 20k because its just a bunch of subaru parts stuck together. it aint that simple. and it aint that cheap to do... CORRECTLY! would you rather it be cheap and feel cheap? like seriously. how easy do all of you think, making a car and selling it for a profit, is? if its that easy then why do so many companies fail or scrape by?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Just an observation, but it seems like you're not really a fan of the FT-86. You don't like the looks, the interior, the power, the weight, or the price, and yet you still come here and post everyday. Why?

but on a serious note PA makes things interesting :P

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Your numbers are a little mixed up. The version that you get for $22k is the base Cooper with a N/A 1.6L making 121 hp. To get the 181 hp version, you have to step up to the $25,300 Cooper S. The 208 hp JCW Coupe is $31,900.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...-at-22000.html


Just an observation, but it seems like you're not really a fan of the FT-86. You don't like the looks, the interior, the power, the weight, or the price, and yet you still come here and post everyday. Why?

I love the concept.. meaning idea of the FT86, I love that Toyota and Subaru came together on it. I love the front, I hate the rear, I hate that it's not a liftback, the spy protoype interior it's fugly. Weight in 2012 I say 2800, for the hp 200 is meh for 2800# and that's because I can drive the wheels off a faster car in the turns.

So f'n forgive me if I'm not a TMC employee, fanboy or positively biased towards the car like the majority. I love all cars and makes, if it looks good on paper GREAT and when the thing gets into the real world and doesn't perform I will crucify the living hell out of it and not make excuses like some will. Personally I'd be disappointment because I wasn't able to spend my money on it that's been burning a hole in my pocket since 2008 for a new car. So get off my back already. I've literally owned 40++ cars in my time but not as much as a couple of guys I know who have owned 70+ cars and have raced them, some being repeat cars too.

Again forgive me for wanting the only car of it's time(currently) that I want to REALLY BUY, not read in the magazine or forums after it';s release, to be done right from the start! 2+2, small, nimble, and turbo(so I can have good mpg when I want, power when I want and 250hp(from 200hp) with a reflash/i/e).


Oh btw you missed the part about me saying $22k starting for the Cooper Coupe.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by madfast

but on a serious note PA makes things interesting :P

Thanks