Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Keep up with the times? Have you ever looked at the history of the Miata? It has fallen behind the times more than many car on the market. It goes almost unchanged for many years and then gets an upgrade. You are focused on one change that many said was decades late. The Twins have been around for all of 6 years. Lets wait and see what the Twins update is at the 30 year mark before we start saying that they have been upgraded in the same manner. Be interesting to know (and we never will) just how much impact the Twins had in the Mazda receiving the update it did. If they didn't exist would the Miata have just carried on with it's minor updates every 6 years or so?

Yeah I am talking about the ND specifically in this case as an example of what I would like to see in the FT86 and I believe it is doable.

Honestly I don't want to come across as bringing down the FT86, it's a glorious car (I own one after driving the MX-5 Nd and choosing the FT86 so I would know), but I'm saying, looking at what the ND has recently accomplished, there is more room for improvement on the FT86 and it would be very welcomed.

I am planning on writing a long term review on my BRZ probably sometimes in May and I will specifically highlight what I would like to have improved on it. But for now, my point is that the FT86 doesn't need much to be very competitive today. It's just Toyota/Subaru seem not to be that interested.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I think this is about the strongest and saddest statement in this thread.

Sadly the main problem is consumers don't even really buy sports cars enough to begin with and add on top of that they prioritize performance figures and luxury over things like lightweight.

There's also another factor I don't believe was ever mentioned in this thread

People tend to also buy sports cars to validate themselves in society. They take that into account. So they might be OK with say a Miata or an FT86 but don't want to get scorned for having a slow car or a "lady's car" in the case of the Miata. Also they think what will their friends say when they go for a ride with them and they floor it and their friends go: "is that it?". So do to such insecurities, they'll go buy the big fat Mustang GT. Not to bring down the Mustang, I like that car personally, but I do hate this dynamic of society where you buy a car to satisfy those around you rather than yourself.

I only buy cars to show off, obviously!

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by ermax

I respectfully disagree that everyone with an expensive car could care less about the expense of owning said car. I work for a privately owned company capable of building a 21 million dollar building simply shaving a little profit over two years. Not a dime financed. The 3 owners are making around 30 million a year each. They all own multiple exotic cars but no joke they will spend a week trying to decide if we should buy 100 RFID cards at $20 or higher quality ones that you can print on better for $300. They agonize over expenses that even I don't think twice about. One of the owners once told me that once you spend a penny you will never see that penny again. To think rich people get rich by not caring about spending money is nievie at best. Not everyone inherits money from their daddy and blows it all without batting an eye. I do agree that there are many who don't give a damn about consumables or expenses but I suspect they ALL have a desire for a lighter car regardless of consumable cost.

I am out though, I see in your next post your moving towards personal attacks.

This has been my experience with a lot of rich people as well! You wouldn't believe they were multi millionaires

Also please stay in the thread, your feedback is very good.

Yeah sometimes things get heated but I think the discussion is very fruitful.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I think this is about the strongest and saddest statement in this thread.

Sadly the main problem is consumers don't even really buy sports cars enough to begin with and add on top of that they prioritize performance figures and luxury over things like lightweight.

There's also another factor I don't believe was ever mentioned in this thread

People tend to also buy sports cars to validate themselves in society. They take that into account. So they might be OK with say a Miata or an FT86 but don't want to get scorned for having a slow car or a "lady's car" in the case of the Miata. Also they think what will their friends say when they go for a ride with them and they floor it and their friends go: "is that it?". So do to such insecurities, they'll go buy the big fat Mustang GT. Not to bring down the Mustang, I like that car personally, but I do hate this dynamic of society where you buy a car to satisfy those around you rather than yourself.

Yes it is harsh. It is also the reality of the situation. Everybody wants to whine and cry that this feature is going away and it is sad they are changing but do they buy a new car when it is available? No they don't want to spend that money so they buy a used one. The car companies are not charities. They will make what sells. End of story.

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Yeah I am talking about the ND specifically in this case as an example of what I would like to see in the FT86 and I believe it is doable.

Honestly I don't want to come across as bringing down the FT86, it's a glorious car (I own one after driving the MX-5 Nd and choosing the FT86 so I would know), but I'm saying, looking at what the ND has recently accomplished, there is more room for improvement on the FT86 and it would be very welcomed.

I am planning on writing a long term review on my BRZ probably sometimes in May and I will specifically highlight what I would like to have improved on it. But for now, my point is that the FT86 doesn't need much to be very competitive today. It's just Toyota/Subaru seem not to be that interested.

But you can not ignore the history and say "this one off event is how Toyota should do it".
Why do you feel it is doable? Because you want it? Why is it not already competitive? Toyota and Subaru gave the world the car that was asked for why would they be interested in changing it to please 20% of the very few people that bought it?

[JR]

I was debating between the Miata and BRZ and the reason why I chose the BRZ is because I wanted less body roll and more cargo room, in the event that I wanted to transport tires or anything else that would fit in that space. I was not really concerned about power since they are both considered "slow" vehicles by today's standards.

I am still waiting for my twin awd crossover though

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

This has been my experience with a lot of rich people as well! You wouldn't believe they were multi millionaires

The bottom line is you have to think like that to become a multi-millionaire well at least through growing a business. Saving scales.

I'll give you a real-world example. At one point I worked for a large airline. When the downturn in air travel profitability hit in the 90s they were looking for ways to save money.

At the time, when there were sandwiches made for in-flight meals the practice was to put a leaf of lettuce on the plate, then sit the sandwich on the lettuce. They did a cost analysis and decided to cut out the "extra" leaf of lettuce that basically got thrown away. In the end it saved somewhere north of $1M dollars a year by doing that one simple item.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The bottom line is you have to think like that to become a multi-millionaire well at least through growing a business. Saving scales.

I'll give you a real-world example. At one point I worked for a large airline. When the downturn in air travel profitability hit in the 90s they were looking for ways to save money.

At the time, when there were sandwiches made for in-flight meals the practice was to put a leaf of lettuce on the plate, then sit the sandwich on the lettuce. They did a cost analysis and decided to cut out the "extra" leaf of lettuce that basically got thrown away. In the end it saved somewhere north of $1M dollars a year by doing that one simple item.

How much money did Toyota and Subaru save by removing torque at 3.5K to 4.5K?

[Gunman]

A couple comments.

Regarding wealthy people, and how they spend, or don't spend money...go read, "The Millionaire Next Door".

Regarding consumables, and wealthy(ier?) owners tracking expensive cars...when I worked at Riley Technologies, we did a track day car, with those people in mind, that want to track a fast car, but didn't want to risk their Ferrari/Porsche/Lambo, etc. Unfortunately, the car and the economic downturn hit at the same time, but the car would out perform most exotics, and had easily repairable corners. Panoz/elan also has the NP01 tp fill that role.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Why do you feel it is doable? Because you want it? Why is it not already competitive? Toyota and Subaru gave the world the car that was asked for why would they be interested in changing it to please 20% of the very few people that bought it?

You might be more of an expert here than I am but here's my reasoning:

I assume the Mazda MX-5 is a financial success and not a money lose for Mazda (although it might be I don't know). Due to this, I assume Mazda succeeded in delivering a lightweight, reasonably satisfactory performance sports car into market while turning a profit. So the argument of a modern light weight sports car that sells does is valid. So in effect, the MX-5 made everyone happy. The general consumers get a good looking sports car that can keep up with the times, and the hardcore car enthusiasts get a light weight sports car. Everyone's happy.


Now the reason why I believe the MX-5 ND is a success story is that they will try to respond to market demand while keeping on trying to cater for the sports car enthusiast. This is by introducing the right small increments needed to answer market demands. This is the same strategy followed by the 911 and Mclaren but on a different scale.

The FT86 on the other hand, is going on 7 years now and the incremental changes are too small to keep up with the market. Sales will go down because of this and the car will die. Next thing you know, there is no second generation FT86 which would be really sad.

Incremental meaningful changes to satisfy the overall market while keeping an eye on the very small segment of car enthusiasts that by themselves would not finance the existence of the vehicle but by playing it smart, enthusiast sports cars can continue to exist.

[JR]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

You might be more of an expert here than I am but here's my reasoning:

I assume the Mazda MX-5 is a financial success and not a money lose for Mazda (although it might be I don't know). Due to this, I assume Mazda succeeded in delivering a lightweight, reasonably satisfactory performance sports car into market while turning a profit. So the argument of a modern light weight sports car that sells does is valid. So in effect, the MX-5 made everyone happy. The general consumers get a good looking sports car that can keep up with the times, and the hardcore car enthusiasts get a light weight sports car. Everyone's happy.


Now the reason why I believe the MX-5 ND is a success story is that they will try to respond to market demand while keeping on trying to cater for the sports car enthusiast. This is by introducing the right small increments needed to answer market demands. This is the same strategy followed by the 911 and Mclaren but on a different scale.

The FT86 on the other hand, is going on 7 years now and the incremental changes are too small to keep up with the market. Sales will go down because of this and the car will die. Next thing you know, there is no second generation FT86 which would be really sad.

Incremental meaningful changes to satisfy the overall market while keeping an eye on the very small segment of car enthusiasts that by themselves would not finance the existence of the vehicle but by playing it smart, enthusiast sports cars can continue to exist.

I'm curious to know how many Miata owners have decided to upgrade to the 2019 model since it has more power. The torque figures are roughly the same though. I know if the twins received 25 more hp, I would NOT be rushing to the dealership to purchase one. In my opinion, 25hp would not be enough to attract new buyers or make current buyers throw money at you, which is probably why Toyota and Subaru have decided not to upgrade the power anytime soon.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

So you suspect my numbers are massively off? Or maybe he just buys parts over the parts counter instead of online?

Who knows, but my number are going to be accurate within 5%. Those prices are real prices that you can find as well.

There are some things he added that I didn't, because it's the same for any car. IE Diff flush (you can add $30 bucks if you want and divide that by 8 track days), trans flush - eventually will do that, about at the hours point, oil changes, seriously?

Brake fluid at $300?? for 9 days? I run Castrol SRF in everything, I change it yearly - maybe. $70 a year there. His shock numbers are high (by almost $200 per shock). His rotor numbers are high (not saying he didn't pay that, but paying more than one has to doesn't make it more expensive for everyone). His real rotor numbers are the same as mine of the fronts (rock auto, $328 a piece minus the 5% code + shipping) his rears cost more than mine but he's counting half so that's $250 off his estimate easily. Oh and he never did that trans flush, so that's another $200.

He's probably running different tires than I am and that's a big part. I could run R7s on a BRZ and guess what? My consumables won't look awesome on the BRZ...

Now obviously every car will be different, but just because it's heavier doesn't mean you are going to see the consumable rates that he saw with his grand sport.

Hell take gas, WolfpackS2000 runs through 1 tank a day. In none of his cars would I use just 1 tank a day. Braking habits determine brake part life, overdriving the front tires determines tire budgets. I could go on.

My numbers are real and again, my car is HEAVIER.

Fuck man, does this mean I'm that bad of a driver? Under-utilizing my car THAT much? I'm usually one of the harder/later brakers out on track too

Going further up your quote, yeah that guy's track cost analysis seems a bit ridiculous.

Back to heavy cars and cost, I suppose it's all anecdotal but I've got a college buddy of mine that probably makes 4X what I do. And he's always had a Mustang GT. He's a car guy, but has never gone to the track. And never will. His reason (at least what he tells me)? Tires and brakes are too expensive. Another friend, used to have a 350Z and went to the track with me every time I went. Also makes considerably more than me. Now owns a (pre-owned) C63 AMG. His reason for no longer wanting to go to track? Tires cost too much.

Maybe they're lying to me, or maybe it's just their excuse since their prioritizes in life have changed (or have always been different). Still, it's the reason they give me.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by JR

I'm curious to know how many Miata owners have decided to upgrade to the 2019 model since it has more power. The torque figures are roughly the same though. I know if the twins received 25 more hp, I would NOT be rushing to the dealership to purchase one. In my opinion, 25hp would not be enough to attract new buyers or make current buyers throw money at you, which is probably why Toyota and Subaru have decided not to upgrade the power anytime soon.

Something that people are overlooking about this upgrade (at least IMO) is that the engine's redline was increased from 6800 to 7500 rpm. That's huge! At least for those of us that appreciate a proper high revving sports car engine.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by JR

How much money did Toyota and Subaru save by removing torque at 3.5K to 4.5K?

Oh you mean choosing to have one engine design that can be sold worldwide in all markets meeting dozens of different emissions standards and fuel consumption regulations?

The car would've never left the factory without that feature.

[WolfpackS2k]

Hey now, if tiny ass Mazda can manage to sell the Miata with 2 engine choices worldwide, you know damn well that Toyota could have done the same.