Subaru BRZ Prototype Review by Car and Driver. Calls it a Knockout.

[yayforaddison]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

I hope you're buying it for youself because if you're parents are going to buy you this is a graduation present, I'm going to vomit.

[Slide]

The dsg in the golf r shits all over the manual car...

When in sports mode of the dsg r, it is just as engaging as a manual!
And it is shitloads faster then the manual only complaint is the inistall take off lag where the box needs to go feom park to select the gear, this just takes practise to work out.
(if you have a spare 2-3k can be tuned out)


But for a rwd sports car I want a manual.

[madfast]

another perspective:

by definition, an auto-manual can't give you the same feel, the same involvement because you are only flipping paddles and/or moving the console shifter back and forth. BUT my question is, if you NEED the feel of shifting to "satisfy" you, then what does that say about the car you're driving? again with the ferrari example. i've never heard any review say this car lacks in any way because of the gearbox. why? because it doesnt NEED the "feel" you get from shifting to offer a satisfying driving experience.

your mom's civic? yes. a manual makes the car more fun. makes it feel faster cuz your mind is occupied with shifting. but in reality you're still slow as fuck. the 458? who needs the feel you get from shifting when you're in that car?

[Hawx]

Originally Posted by madfast

another perspective:

by definition, an auto-manual can't give you the same feel, the same involvement because you are only flipping paddles and/or moving the console shifter back and forth. BUT my question is, if you NEED the feel of shifting to "satisfy" you, then what does that say about the car you're driving? again with the ferrari example. i've never heard any review say this car lacks in any way because of the gearbox. why? because it doesnt NEED the "feel" you get from shifting to offer a satisfying driving experience.

your mom's civic? yes. a manual makes the car more fun. makes it feel faster cuz your mind is occupied with shifting. but in reality you're still slow as fuck. the 458? who needs the feel you get from shifting when you're in that car?

Summed it up pretty well there, completely agree. But then it leaves the question: where would most people feel the need to draw the line between manual or automatic; in terms of the performance of the car?

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

I hope you're buying it for youself because if you're parents are going to buy you this is a graduation present, I'm going to vomit.

I never understood graduation presents, especially for something silly like high school. The only thing I got after graduating high school was a hangover.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by madfast

another perspective:

by definition, an auto-manual can't give you the same feel, the same involvement because you are only flipping paddles and/or moving the console shifter back and forth. BUT my question is, if you NEED the feel of shifting to "satisfy" you, then what does that say about the car you're driving? again with the ferrari example. i've never heard any review say this car lacks in any way because of the gearbox. why? because it doesnt NEED the "feel" you get from shifting to offer a satisfying driving experience.

your mom's civic? yes. a manual makes the car more fun. makes it feel faster cuz your mind is occupied with shifting. but in reality you're still slow as fuck. the 458? who needs the feel you get from shifting when you're in that car?

Well fucking said!!!!

[Buggy51]

Hmm valid point madfast.

Out of curiosity, the article says: "A big 'start' button on the console lights the engine," does that mean keyless ignition? Is the Nuringburg racing prototype older than the one C&D messed with?

And I still balk at the idea of it being 28k.

[Rampant]

Originally Posted by madfast

another perspective:

by definition, an auto-manual can't give you the same feel, the same involvement because you are only flipping paddles and/or moving the console shifter back and forth. BUT my question is, if you NEED the feel of shifting to "satisfy" you, then what does that say about the car you're driving? again with the ferrari example. i've never heard any review say this car lacks in any way because of the gearbox. why? because it doesnt NEED the "feel" you get from shifting to offer a satisfying driving experience.

your mom's civic? yes. a manual makes the car more fun. makes it feel faster cuz your mind is occupied with shifting. but in reality you're still slow as fuck. the 458? who needs the feel you get from shifting when you're in that car?

Excellent point. My retort is 1) The FR-S wi also be slow as fuck stock and 2) it is not just the car, but, more importantly, the type of driving that matters. Street driving should NEVER be hard enough where you are focusing that much on finding the limit of the vehicle. And, after all, that is the type of driving 98% of us will be doing.

I contend that even driving a 458 on the street, it would still be more fun with a manual. Well, at least for me anyway.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Not sure how "affordable" it would be though.

"Affordable" as in cheaper than the GTR's ungodly price tag. $50-60 would be nice with Z06 performance.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Mazdas only fast car after this year is manual only and the rx8 was a complete dog with the auto. Toyota doesn't have shit right now (changing next year of course). Evo is manual or dsg only. Sti is manual only as far as I know (haven't looked in years).

Mazda dropped the ball there, the torque converter in the RX8 transmission couldn't withstand the high rev's of the Renesis engine. They had to drop the redline and readjust the entire powerband to get the performance closer to the MT. Totally failed IMO. Not the transmissions fault, Mazda chose the wrong type.

Sure Evo, STi, MS3? and several other entry-mid ranged performance cars are MT only. This comes back to a point I was making a few months back. To make a quality auto box the cost would be too great and people wouldn't pay the $3-5K premium for it...so they don't make it. Look at the high-end/exotics. They almost all have an auto option that either matches or beats the MT counterpart.

When they [high performance autos] become more cost effective, we will see more of them in the entry level performance market. Just like it took a few years for us common folk to get flat panel televisions. The rich folk who purchased $10,000 tv sets financed the R&D it required to make them mainstream. Once that happened every one and their mother has a flat panel. Just takes times.

Originally Posted by Rampant

Nothing can take the place of the feeling of a perfectly executed rev-matched down shift as you dive into a corner. Nothing.

Maybe so. Finishing ahead of you (whoever) in a race would certainly take the cake for me though. I guess I'm different. I've been driving high performance cars with manuals for the last decade and I guess I'm over clutches. The ability to apply pressure to a pedal while also sliding a knock around doesn't take all that much skill. If I can get the same performance from an paddle as I can with a knob, I'm all for it. Technology wins out every time.

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

I never understood graduation presents, especially for something silly like high school. The only thing I got after graduating high school was a hangover.

Yeah, that's crazy. I don't know when graduating high school became a big deal. If all I ever did with my life was graduate high school, I would give my life a D-. It's passable, but nothing special. Silly rich people.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

I hope you're buying it for youself because if you're parents are going to buy you this is a graduation present, I'm going to vomit.

I bet your parents didn't get you a graduation present when they found out you were using the incorrect forms of your/you're.

Who gives a shit what someone else's parents buy them? Personally if I had 20 grand it'd go into my son's college fund instead of a new car, but some people just have a ton of money and don't know what to do with it.

P.S. - If anyone reading this is one of those who have tons of money and don't know what to do with it, I'm accepting donations.

[dominican]

Ok, here's the deal about manual and automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions make the drive be involved in the forward, and backward, motion of the vehicle. This makes the person engaged in driving the vehicle, instead of just mashing the accelerator pedal and brake pedal.

For people that say having a manual in traffic is too much, they are sadly mistaken. I have driven my manual cars into and out of NYC, 3-6 times a week, for over a year, and not once did I wish I had an automatic car. Sure, if you need something to just go back and forth to your job everyday, I can agree that an auto will be more practical, but not so practical to say that the auto is worth having.

That said, if it is more than 23k, if it weighs more than 2700 pounds, if it looks horrible, then I will be forced to look elsewhere.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by dominican

Ok, here's the deal about manual and automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions make the drive be involved in the forward, and backward, motion of the vehicle. This makes the person engaged in driving the vehicle, instead of just mashing the accelerator pedal and brake pedal.

For people that say having a manual in traffic is too much, they are sadly mistaken. I have driven my manual cars into and out of NYC, 3-6 times a week, for over a year, and not once did I wish I had an automatic car. Sure, if you need something to just go back and forth to your job everyday, I can agree that an auto will be more practical, but not so practical to say that the auto is worth having.

That said, if it is more than 23k, if it weighs more than 2700 pounds, if it looks horrible, then I will be forced to look elsewhere.

To play devil's advocate...

I'll take paddle shifters. While you're busy using that 2% of your brain pressing down on the clutch pedal, I'll invest that 2% of my brain in making sure I hit that apex at just the right spot. We're both 100% engaged in our race, only difference is you're tossing some of your concentration out the window where I'm optimizing my driving. In the end we're both satisfied. I'm satisfied that I did everything I could to improve my lap time, you're satisfied that you did more physical work to achieve a lesser goal.

:happy0180:

Driving a MT in traffic isn't "too much," it's more work than it needs to be. I'm not trying to impress girls in school by driving around in super cool MT car, I'm just trying to get to the store to pick up some milk. I don't need any added "feel" for my mindless drive to the store to get my milk. That's why I'm open to the idea of a high performance AT. It's fun when I want it to be, mindless when I don't.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by dominican

Ok, here's the deal about manual and automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions make the drive be involved in the forward, and backward, motion of the vehicle. This makes the person engaged in driving the vehicle, instead of just mashing the accelerator pedal and brake pedal.

For people that say having a manual in traffic is too much, they are sadly mistaken. I have driven my manual cars into and out of NYC, 3-6 times a week, for over a year, and not once did I wish I had an automatic car. Sure, if you need something to just go back and forth to your job everyday, I can agree that an auto will be more practical, but not so practical to say that the auto is worth having.

That said, if it is more than 23k, if it weighs more than 2700 pounds, if it looks horrible, then I will be forced to look elsewhere.

To play devil's advocate...

I'll take paddle shifters. While you're busy using that 2% of your brain pressing down on the clutch pedal, I'll invest that 2% of my brain in making sure I hit that apex at just the right spot. We're both 100% engaged in our race, only difference is you're tossing some of your concentration out the window where I'm optimizing my driving. In the end we're both satisfied. I'm satisfied that I did everything I could to improve my lap time, you're satisfied that you did more physical work to achieve a lesser goal.
:happy0180:

Driving a MT in traffic isn't "too much," it's more work than it needs to be. I'm not trying to impress girls in school by driving around in super cool MT car, I'm just trying to get to the store to pick up some milk. I don't need any added "feel" for my mindless drive to the store to get my milk. That's why I'm open to the idea of a high performance AT. It's fun when I want it to be, mindless when I don't.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

To play devil's advocate...

I'll take paddle shifters. While you're busy using that 2% of your brain pressing down on the clutch pedal, I'll invest that 2% of my brain in making sure I hit that apex at just the right spot. We're both 100% engaged in our race, only difference is you're tossing some of your concentration out the window where I'm optimizing my driving. In the end we're both satisfied. I'm satisfied that I did everything I could to improve my lap time, you're satisfied that you did more physical work to achieve a lesser goal.

:happy0180:

Driving a MT in traffic isn't "too much," it's more work than it needs to be. I'm not trying to impress girls in school by driving around in super cool MT car, I'm just trying to get to the store to pick up some milk. I don't need any added "feel" for my mindless drive to the store to get my milk. That's why I'm open to the idea of a high performance AT. It's fun when I want it to be, mindless when I don't.

I wish some people would get this concept. I couldn't have said it better. Some days I'm in the mood and other days I'm not but at least I have the option of doing so. In my car I love to use the manual part of the tranny whether upshifting or downshifting to get more power then all of a sudden I run into some bullshit ass traffic so I become bored with shifting and just put the damn car in auto until I find a clear path.....