Frs vs s2000

[ayau]

is there a BMI video of the S2k VS the FRS/BRZ? then we can finally settle this debate once and for all.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by ayau

the CR is his personal car, and the BRZ is sponsored.

I read his posts and assume he has tracked his S2000 CR and also a BRZ. I assume both extensively and he is qualified more than 99.9% of the people on the forum trying to compare both cars on the track for that reason.

I'll let him comment about his sponsorships and if that is biasing his opinions. Can't stick up for him there as I don't know nor have I ever met him (I assume it's a "him" with the name CSG Mike).

Understand where alot of the S2000 fans are coming from. There are some cars I really am subjectively gaga over (2004 and 2007 STi cars or the Evo IX). Totally understandable, I wasn't trying to come off as rude as I know everybody has certain cars they just love no matter what (BRZ isn't one of mine yet, but it's growing on me FAST). It just seemed like he was putting out alot more objective data to support his claims. More than I'm seeing from the other folks posting.

Originally Posted by ayau

is there a BMI video of the S2k VS the FRS/BRZ? then we can finally settle this debate once and for all.

LOL, are you setting us up? He already quantified his statements that the BRZ needs some real tires (not prius). You probably have a BMI video ready of a stock BRZ on prius tires versus an S2000.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ayau

i'm curious what your thoughts are on the s2k cr vs the brz. does it pretty much mirror CSG Mike's?

I've never tracked an S2000 CR. I did track my regular 06 S2000 and I'd agree with Mike. I got slammed on rr-ax (a road race/autocross forum) for saying the BRZ has more steering communication (and communication in general) than the S2000, but it sure as hell does in my opinion. Ironically a number of guys over there own 86s now. The S2000 was less stable on track based on memory (I sold the S2K years before my BRZ existed) but we all know how memory can be. Personally I think a lot of the "OMG OVERSTEERS!" complaints of the S2000 are overstated, it DOES suffer from bumpsteer but I've never felt it was uncontrollable like some others may claim (I haven't seen Mike say that, I'm just talking about in general).

Now I would love S2K power and gearing in the BRZ though. That would be just about perfect IMO. Maybe not quite as peaky as the F2xC although I'm used to that (see sig) anyways so I'd live with that just fine as well.

I think when I owned the S2K I really wanted it to be as great as I hoped it would be in my head.. one day I drove back from ITR Expo (at VIR that year IIRC) and left the S2K in the street to move the Integra, I ended up leaving the S2K idling in the street for 30 minutes while driving the Integra and realizing that the S2000 really wasn't what I hoped - and expected - it to be.

It was up for sale 2 weeks later. It's not a bad car, it just wasn't the car for me.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

I read his posts and assume he has tracked his S2000 CR and also a BRZ. I assume both extensively and he is qualified more than 99.9% of the people on the forum trying to compare both cars on the track for that reason.

I'll let him comment about his sponsorships and if that is biasing his opinions. Can't stick up for him there as I don't know nor have I ever met him (I assume it's a "him" with the name CSG Mike).

Understand where alot of the S2000 fans are coming from. There are some cars I really am subjectively gaga over (2004 and 2007 STi cars or the Evo IX). Totally understandable, I wasn't trying to come off as rude as I know everybody has certain cars they just love no matter what (BRZ isn't one of mine yet, but it's growing on me FAST).

yeah, he definitely pushes his CR to the limits (tracks it on a regular basis).

i was just joking around. i'm sure CSG Mike's opinion are true and honest. after all, an intelligent conversation only occurs when it's based on facts and not one's gut feelings. :happy0180:

i agree with you that admitting your own car as being inferior is the last thing you want to do as a car owner, especially when it's the new kid around the block (BRZ/FRS).

for a long time, the s2k has dominated the tracks, but maybe now it's time to share that spotlight with the FRS/BRZ.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

I read his posts and assume he has tracked his S2000 CR and also a BRZ. I assume both extensively and he is qualified more than 99.9% of the people on the forum trying to compare both cars on the track for that reason.

I'll let him comment about his sponsorships and if that is biasing his opinions. Can't stick up for him there as I don't know nor have I ever met him (I assume it's a "him" with the name CSG Mike).

Understand where alot of the S2000 fans are coming from. There are some cars I really am subjectively gaga over (2004 and 2007 STi cars or the Evo IX). Totally understandable, I wasn't trying to come off as rude as I know everybody has certain cars they just love no matter what (BRZ isn't one of mine yet, but it's growing on me FAST). It just seemed like he was putting out alot more objective data to support his claims. More than I'm seeing from the other folks posting.

LOL, are you setting us up? He already quantified his statements that the BRZ needs some real tires (not prius). You probably have a BMI video ready of a stock BRZ on prius tires versus an S2000.

^ I totally understand where your coming from & I it takes a lot to offend me. lol

My analytical brain just stops me from accepting that a BRZ is faster. Not saying it isn't, but hard to visualize. Possibly I'm clouded by my passion for s2ks or maybe need more seat time in the BRZ.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ayau

but CSG Mike is a sponsored BRZ driver. there might be some conflict of interest going on.

He's won time attacks with his CR.

He can prove what he's saying by posting data. He uses a data logger of some sort I'm sure, an AIM Solo-DL IIRC. I'm not sure if they've actually run the BRZ in a time attack yet though.

Actually I'd love to see the data to see cornering speed differences, etc.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

That's it!!! I'm shipping the track car to Cali. CSG Mike vs ketchup. I want to see what this aero business is about. lol j/k (but am thinking of shipping to Cali)

BTW, just came from Subaru dealership. There was a limited in stock in the color I want. Hmmm tempting....

I'll drive out. Seriously.

[DarkSunrise]

I can see why S2000 owners would be skeptical. Assuming the S2000 and BRZ have only suspension and tire mods, the S2000 is still up 40 hp and is less than 100 lbs heavier, so it makes sense to think the S2000 would be faster.

That said, CSG Mike has posted laptimes driving both cars (and some video too IIRC), so I'd say he's met his burden of proof and I'm inclined to believe him.

[Captain Insano]

Agree ^^^ on paper it does seem like an S2000 would put the smack down on a BRZ on a road course.

Again don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to own an S2000. The only thing I don't like about them - I really hate convertibles, but with the hard top options I think they look totally bad ass.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

My analytical brain just stops me from accepting that a BRZ is faster. Not saying it isn't, but hard to visualize. Possibly I'm clouded by my passion for s2ks or maybe need more seat time in the BRZ.

I agree actually. On paper it definitely shouldn't be faster. IMO it probably comes down to consistency and the S2K's aero problems (which are kinda hard to deny).

A buddy pointed out one of the things Mike said that reminded me of the ITR (greater than the sum of it's parts). ITRs have been faster than many more "capable" (on paper) cars with good drivers too.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

I read his posts and assume he has tracked his S2000 CR and also a BRZ. I assume both extensively and he is qualified more than 99.9% of the people on the forum trying to compare both cars on the track for that reason.

I'll let him comment about his sponsorships and if that is biasing his opinions. Can't stick up for him there as I don't know nor have I ever met him (I assume it's a "him" with the name CSG Mike).

Understand where alot of the S2000 fans are coming from. There are some cars I really am subjectively gaga over (2004 and 2007 STi cars or the Evo IX). Totally understandable, I wasn't trying to come off as rude as I know everybody has certain cars they just love no matter what (BRZ isn't one of mine yet, but it's growing on me FAST). It just seemed like he was putting out alot more objective data to support his claims. More than I'm seeing from the other folks posting.

LOL, are you setting us up? He already quantified his statements that the BRZ needs some real tires (not prius). You probably have a BMI video ready of a stock BRZ on prius tires versus an S2000.

yeah, i just realized that stock for stock, the s2000 has an unfair advantage due to the tires lol.

but a stock car is a stock car.

[vhx1]

I currently own an 06 s2000.. only mods are brake pads 225/255 hankook rs3 and a bucket seat and have been competing in the s2k challenge stock class for the last few years. Currently very interested in getting a BRZ as second car for a daily as I don't want to sell my s2k. Since the s2k challenge is run on most of the socal tracks, what many of us have seen is the brz really shine on tracks where aerodynamics makes a difference i.e. the famous buttonwillow raceway config 13 clockwise. If anyone has spent a good amount of time at the track events where brz/frs/s2k are driven by competent drivers, then you tend to agree with mike has been saying. On slower speed tracks like streets of willow springs, an equivalently modded s2k will usually turn quicker lap times with equl driver. On a higher speed track like buttonwillow 13cw or auto club speed roval, the brz/frs is just as fast if not faster assuming equal drivers/tires/mods.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I agree actually. On paper it definitely shouldn't be faster. IMO it probably comes down to consistency and the S2K's aero problems (which are kinda hard to deny).

A buddy pointed out one of the things Mike said that reminded me of the ITR (greater than the sum of it's parts). ITRs have been faster than many more "capable" (on paper) cars with good drivers too.

this is still based on science. i'm just curious what this magical formula is that's allowing the brz underdog to outperform the s2k.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

OK - gonna start this post with following: I'm not saying the S2000 is a bad car. Contraire, I actually really like S2000s alot. I would own one if I had the money and garage space for a weekend only track car.

BUT

This thread is like classic case of denial.... And I'm not talking about the FRS/BRZ owners. CSG Mike posts meaningful info over and over about power band, coefficient of drag, rear end lift, and then it isn't good enough for some reason to all the S2000 lovers.

On the other hand, I see alot of comparo threads in which FRS/BRZ owners definitely are in denial, so I guess this is a tendency when you own or really love a car and it makes it harder objectively look at data/facts.

Please don't get angry at this post, just calling out what I see in the thread.

Given the choice, I'd still take a S2000. It has an intangible quality of conveying driving pleasure, which simply cannot be quantified on paper.