STX Rules and Setup Questions

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by smg1138

For those of you on coilovers, what kind of ride height are you running in STX? I'm on RCE T2's and am dropped 1" Front and 1 1/4" Rear from stock height. That gives me basically zero rake angle right now. I'd like to go a bit lower, but don't want to screw up the suspension geometry. What are you guys finding to be the most ideal ride height?

I was looking at the T2 and considering it. How much lower will it let you go?

Personally my plan will be "go as low as possible without ruining shock travel or causing rake issues." I'll have to see how low that actually is given that the car is my daily as well.

Axles can be an issue if you go below 1" but I just see that as the cost of doing business and will be taking a spare or two to nationals. IMO our geometry handles large drops pretty well, unlike other cars (RSX-S).

[GeorgeJFrick]

Can you target both rake and 4 wheel balance when only adjusting via coil-overs? I would think you could dial in a specified starting rake; but when you do the 4-wheel balance; it might negate it at least partially. You could then look at things like a lighter battery/etc to try and off-set back towards the desired rake.

Please, smack me with the knowledge hammer here.

[Thorpedo]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I was looking at the T2 and considering it. How much lower will it let you go?

Personally my plan will be "go as low as possible without ruining shock travel or causing rake issues." I'll have to see how low that actually is given that the car is my daily as well.

Axles can be an issue if you go below 1" but I just see that as the cost of doing business and will be taking a spare or two to nationals. IMO our geometry handles large drops pretty well, unlike other cars (RSX-S).

You going to run some really stiff springs or big bars? That thing is going to roll excessively if not. Our diffs don't like that either.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Thorpedo

You going to run some really stiff springs or big bars? That thing is going to roll excessively if not. Our diffs don't like that either.

I am largely copying someone's setup, and I don't necessarily have their permission to share details. I've driven it and it has barely any roll. The car took 2nd place at spring nats last year if I remember right.

Define "really stiff?" In Celica land, 1000 lbs/in for the rear is considered soft...

[cjd]

A Celica is going to be different, to be sure. I used to run full stiff (no springs available at the time) on rear struts, which basically removed any ability they had to respond and narrower tires in a FWD - weight transfer off the inside rear was smooth and consistent, and I could pick it up quite a bit getting the car to rotate.

I think the T2 can be set up to require only reasonably stiff sways (they can handle decent spring rates,) but pushing the car a little lower than 1" will help. It probably depends what spring rates you choose, too.

I'm on SRC with 10/12k f/r rates and recommended height (~34mm drop?) and stock sways and am not sure countering chassis roll is on the list of problems I'm facing. I've had some massive chatter on the front through a turn, and one event was set up where I ended up unloading a back tire, depending how I took the turn. I'm still sorting out how to drive the car well (I think I got to the "demonstrating the probability of becoming a threat" category through my first season, no more) so probably not the best example, but... we'll see.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by cjd

I think the T2 can be set up to require only reasonably stiff sways (they can handle decent spring rates,) but pushing the car a little lower than 1" will help. It probably depends what spring rates you choose, too.

I'll be below 10k/12k but not by all that much. Lower really is better assuming you don't run out of travel (and this was the one and only flaw my sample car had, was that some bumps would make the rear smash into the hard part of the bump stop - but the car was lower than most).

Originally Posted by cjd

I'm on SRC with 10/12k f/r rates and recommended height (~34mm drop?) and stock sways and am not sure countering chassis roll is on the list of problems I'm facing. I've had some massive chatter on the front through a turn, and one event was set up where I ended up unloading a back tire, depending how I took the turn. I'm still sorting out how to drive the car well (I think I got to the "demonstrating the probability of becoming a threat" category through my first season, no more) so probably not the best example, but... we'll see.

Unloading a back tire is bad unless you have a trick diff. Things you can try:

- soften rear rebound
- raise front compression
- lower ride height
- remove rear sway bar
- stiffer front sway bar

Not necessarily in any order, but shock adjustments are the easiest step assuming you unloaded during transition, not during steady state. You may or may not have been driving that corner correctly, but the behavior of the car is incorrect and needs to be fixed. This is one reason I left CS for STX - in street class you drive around a lot of bad behavior, in STX you fix it properly.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Unloading a back tire is bad unless you have a trick diff. Things you can try:

- soften rear rebound
- raise front compression
- lower ride height
- remove rear sway bar
- stiffer front sway bar

Not necessarily in any order, but shock adjustments are the easiest step assuming you unloaded during transition, not during steady state. You may or may not have been driving that corner correctly, but the behavior of the car is incorrect and needs to be fixed. This is one reason I left CS for STX - in street class you drive around a lot of bad behavior, in STX you fix it properly.

Yeah, I know it's bad. I wasn't even sure it really happened the first time since the feel is similar, but rather different, than I used to get in the ACR. FWD it's right there and you feel it in your feet quite clearly.

I was able to drive around it (had to change the exit,) but don't discount the possibility that the driving had a lot of room for improvement OR the car could be set up better - both are almost guaranteed. I haven't been consistent enough till the last few events to even trust that a change I made had anything to do with a change in time. So far I've been forcing myself to a 100% self-improvement regime but will try changing that this year.

I'll be making an alignment change (a bit less camber in the back) and starting with the shock settings a little softer than 'recommended' to start and go from there. I'm pretty sure a front swaybar would help some things, but wonder if a softer rear swaybar would help more - I suspect no rear swaybar might not net out to better performance all over, but I'll try it.

I had my reasons for ignoring all conventional wisdom (even ignoring what I recommend to others) and went in with mods that should have waited till I had a bit of seat time in this car. Things started to make sense the last few events, but I couldn't pull it all together. It was 12 years between my last AutoX in a FWD and picking it up again last year... whee.

I wish conversations like this were more common at events.

[smg1138]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I was looking at the T2 and considering it. How much lower will it let you go?

Personally my plan will be "go as low as possible without ruining shock travel or causing rake issues." I'll have to see how low that actually is given that the car is my daily as well.

Axles can be an issue if you go below 1" but I just see that as the cost of doing business and will be taking a spare or two to nationals. IMO our geometry handles large drops pretty well, unlike other cars (RSX-S).

I believe the T2's have a maximum drop of 2". I don't plan on going anywhere near that low though since my FRS is a daily driver. The lowest I've gone before is 1.25" up front and the control arms were just about parallel. When I asked RCE about it, they said lowering 1.5" or more would require a roll center kit to fix the geometry.

[Racecomp Engineering]

On our T2s I wouldn't go stiffer than 10k rear. If you wanted to go that stiff I'd suggest something else.

Not sure how low you're looking to go but a 1.5 inch drop is fine. You'd have a lot of droop travel too so you wouldn't have to worry about lifting a rear as much. Add lowering top mounts and you could drop even farther.

At 2 inches though yes you'd want a roll center kit (which you can't have in STX) or very stiff springs (which have their own drawbacks). You could maybe make something work though.

Also, don't make direct comparisons to a Celica! Different cars, suspensions, FWD, etc.

- Andrew

[FastWhite]

Just to chime because I'm on the SRC's.
I have a 20 super pro f sway. Stock rear sway with super pro bushings. Running the 245 stones. I'll set he front to ~3/4 or 2/3 on the front and ~5/6 or 7/8 depending on how I want the car to rotate.
I'll be 32/30 on tire pressures.
I find that the front sway made big difference for turn in.
The best tool I found for set up was a skid pad.
I was set up to what I thought was great but on the skid pad I had so much under steer that I could NOT loose the rear end. Then I tightened up to the above settings. When I went around in circle I got so dizzy I had to stop. And I never got the car to spin out. This was on old Z2 SS.
I am now in the top ten locally within our own group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thorpedo]

Seemed pretty obvious to me, but stiff by STX standards. Believe it or not I wasn't talking about a Celica, I was talking about a Scion FR-S or a Subaru BRZ.

IMO I'd say in the 12k Range. WIth 7k fronts with a 1.25 drop my 245/40/17s rub the inside of the fender (suspension is on the bumpstops) That's with the strano front bar pushing 1.2 lateral Gs. WIthout roll center correction it's a lot of flop to deal with.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by FastWhite

Just to chime because I'm on the SRC's.
I have a 20 super pro f sway. Stock rear sway with super pro bushings. Running the 245 stones. I'll set he front to ~3/4 or 2/3 on the front and ~5/6 or 7/8 depending on how I want the car to rotate.
I'll be 32/30 on tire pressures.
I find that the front sway made big difference for turn in.
The best tool I found for set up was a skid pad.
I was set up to what I thought was great but on the skid pad I had so much under steer that I could NOT loose the rear end. Then I tightened up to the above settings. When I went around in circle I got so dizzy I had to stop. And I never got the car to spin out. This was on old Z2 SS.
I am now in the top ten locally within our own group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you try the stock swaybar up front? Can I ask what you have for alignment?

Unfortunately it seems all the test-n-tune events I knew about have been scrapped (event days lost at the site so they were the first to go)

C

[FastWhite]

No I did not try the stock sway up front. I know that it is recommended from the vendor to go that way. I already had the front on. I initially had an 18 mm rear super pro on. Lets say I should have attended a drift event. Massively loose.
I am currently running -3 up front and -2.4 in the rear. recommended settings.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by cjd

I wish conversations like this were more common at events.

That's unfortunate. At my local events we are always talking shop.

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

On our T2s I wouldn't go stiffer than 10k rear. If you wanted to go that stiff I'd suggest something else.

Not sure how low you're looking to go but a 1.5 inch drop is fine. You'd have a lot of droop travel too so you wouldn't have to worry about lifting a rear as much. Add lowering top mounts and you could drop even farther.

At 2 inches though yes you'd want a roll center kit (which you can't have in STX) or very stiff springs (which have their own drawbacks). You could maybe make something work though.

Also, don't make direct comparisons to a Celica! Different cars, suspensions, FWD, etc.

- Andrew

Where did I make a *direct* comparison?

Good info. I'll have to take a tape measure out next time I see the car I'm copying but it is low. Works really good on course though. Suspect that they have lowering top hats or other tricks though given what I've read here.