STX Rules and Setup Questions

[jbailey8748]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Allowing suspension geometry changes can be a slippery slope if not worded properly.

Edit: And imo not in the spirit of a 'street class' which would push car owners towards investing into engineering consultation of dynamics for those that can't do it themselves if there isn't an adequate off the shelf solution. Rules shouldn't just ensure equal, quality, entertaining competition, they should also keep costs reasonable.

I agree anything major shouldn't be allowed, welding things in cutting stuff out. Ball joints wear out you should be able to go back with a like factory replacement. You know chances are you wouldn't need the roll center and it will do more harm than good.

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[toeout]

People running Whiteline Front swaybars, can you post whether you have 20mm or 22mm and which setting ( soft or hard ) along with which rear bar you have?


I'm looking to get some adjustability for my setup and it looks like going stiffer up front is the only way to get it.


I currently have Strano front bar and 16mm Whiteline rear. The rear was very loose at Dixie and will be most likely at our local lots including Bristol. OTOH I need that rear bar for Wilmington, where the car was very pushy with the Strano front/stock rear combo at last years Prosolo.


Strano Bar is 85% stiffer than stock. According to this thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49659


Whiteline 20mm Soft Setting - 118.5% stiffer than stock and Hard Setting - 174% stiffer than stock

Whiteline 22mm Soft Setting - 212% stiffer than stock and Hard Setting - 288% stiffer than stock

Going by these numbers 20mm should be sufficient, but I'd like to hear from the actual users

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by toeout

I'm looking to get some adjustability for my setup and it looks like going stiffer up front is the only way to get it.

What about changing your spring rates? Whats your current suspension setup?

[toeout]

I'm #400 front #350 back, -3.4 camber front, -2.1 back, 0 toe front 1/8 toe in back.


I don't want to mess with the springs, swaybars are easier to replace and adjust.

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by toeout

People running Whiteline Front swaybars, can you post whether you have 20mm or 22mm and which setting ( soft or hard ) along with which rear bar you have?


I'm looking to get some adjustability for my setup and it looks like going stiffer up front is the only way to get it.


I currently have Strano front bar and 16mm Whiteline rear. The rear was very loose at Dixie and will be most likely at our local lots including Bristol. OTOH I need that rear bar for Wilmington, where the car was very pushy with the Strano front/stock rear combo at last years Prosolo.


Strano Bar is 85% stiffer than stock. According to this thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49659


Whiteline 20mm Soft Setting - 118.5% stiffer than stock and Hard Setting - 174% stiffer than stock

Whiteline 22mm Soft Setting - 212% stiffer than stock and Hard Setting - 288% stiffer than stock

Going by these numbers 20mm should be sufficient, but I'd like to hear from the actual users

I've had the Whiteline 20mm front bar and stock rear bar combo since late-2012. I ran it on the stiffest setting while in C-Stock and C-Street, but now I've moved to STX with RCE T2s (400/400 springs) and I'm using the softest sway bar setting. I've toyed around with the idea of moving to a 16mm rear bar and then running my front sway bar on stiff again, but my setup feels pretty good as is for the main site I run (ZMAX Dragway near Charlotte).

I've never been on a grippy concrete site like Wilmington, but I think your 16mm rear bar would work well with the 20mm Whiteline front bar given what you've described. The softest setting is only slightly stiffer than the Strano bar, so maybe you can run that bar with the soft setting at Wilmington and use the stiff setting for asphalt sites like Bristol or Dixie.

Adjusting spring rates and shock settings are another option of course, but I'm guessing you like your shocks and springs as they are and are just looking for a flexible sway bar setup to fine tune for different sites.

[toeout]

Originally Posted by jprice130

I've never been on a grippy concrete site like Wilmington, but I think your 16mm rear bar would work well with the 20mm Whiteline front bar given what you've described. The softest setting is only slightly stiffer than the Strano bar, so maybe you can run that bar with the soft setting at Wilmington and use the stiff setting for asphalt sites like Bristol or Dixie.

Adjusting spring rates and shock settings are another option of course, but I'm guessing you like your shocks and springs as they are and are just looking for a flexible sway bar setup to fine tune for different sites.

That's what I thought.


The MCS 2-ways have a huge range, but they still don't cover all the surfaces that I run on and they also don't affect the steady state. With the stock rear bar I had to constantly lift in the sweeper to bring the nose back in line ( Wilmington ).


The 20mm Whiteline seems to be the right one for me, I'm just curious if anybody is going even stiffer and how do they balance it out.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by toeout

I'm #400 front #350 back

Found your problem.

[strat61caster]

19mm Perrin is also an option if you like where the Strano puts you and you want just a little softer or stiffer, don't remember the comparison off the top of my head but it overlaps the 20mm white line assuming the holes are in the same positions. They're on backorder right now but sounds like a fresh batch will be available to ship out in a week or so.

But white line comes with end links so that's nice.

[toeout]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Found your problem.

?

Originally Posted by strat61caster

19mm Perrin is also an option if you like where the Strano puts you and you want just a little softer or stiffer, don't remember the comparison off the top of my head but it overlaps the 20mm white line assuming the holes are in the same positions. They're on backorder right now but sounds like a fresh batch will be available to ship out in a week or so.

But white line comes with end links so that's nice.

19mm Perrin is 25% and 72% stiffer than stock, respectively, so under Strano bar's stiffness. 22mm Perrin is 130% and 218% stiffer.


I already have Whiteline's endlinks, so I'll sell the ones from the kit

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by toeout

?

You are running stiffer front springs. Any reason why? Thats normally not recommended, and will require significant swaybar changes to compensate which might also cause you to lift a rear tire and mess with your diff (unless you are running a fancy diff) causing snap oversteer (along with lots of understeer from the stiffer front springs).

It sounds like you are trying to run a stiffer front bar, which will just make even more understeer... I don't think that will work, but anyone else is welcome to chime in. I've had a little personal experience with spring rates vs. swaybars and trying to get the car to rotate.

If I were you and didn't want to spend any money, I would try swapping your front/rear springs if they are the same length/size. Its a free experiment that would take more effort than swaybars but cost less (unless you have fixed-rate shocks, but I'm guessing you have adjustable rates).

There are lots of threads about this, I would probably start here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9936

[toeout]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

You are running stiffer front springs. Any reason why? Thats normally not recommended, and will require significant swaybar changes to compensate which might also cause you to lift a rear tire and mess with your diff (unless you are running a fancy diff) causing snap oversteer (along with lots of understeer from the stiffer front springs).

It sounds like you are trying to run a stiffer front bar, which will just make even more understeer... I don't think that will work, but anyone else is welcome to chime in. I've had a little personal experience with spring rates vs. swaybars and trying to get the car to rotate.

If I were you and didn't want to spend any money, I would try swapping your front/rear springs if they are the same length/size. Its a free experiment that would take more effort than swaybars but cost less (unless you have fixed-rate shocks, but I'm guessing you have adjustable rates).

There are lots of threads about this, I would probably start here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9936

The spring rates are pretty much the ballpark numbers that everybody runs. I've seen softer in the back, square setups, stiffer in the back. To me that shows that the car is not overly sensitive to one specific spring rate.


I know what setups work on the sites I'm running, but it would require me to swap out the rear swaybar between the sites. So if the Whiteline 16mm rear bar is too stiff in the softest setting, I think balancing it out with a bigger front sway bar should work. The combination of 2 font bar settings combined with 3 rear settings gives me many options to work with.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by toeout

The spring rates are pretty much the ballpark numbers that everybody runs. I've seen softer in the back, square setups, stiffer in the back. To me that shows that the car is not overly sensitive to one specific spring rate.


I know what setups work on the sites I'm running, but it would require me to swap out the rear swaybar between the sites. So if the Whiteline 16mm rear bar is too stiff in the softest setting, I think balancing it out with a bigger front sway bar should work. The combination of 2 font bar settings combined with 3 rear settings gives me many options to work with.

Ya, the rates you have are fine in terms of the range, but the F/R bias is indeed important. The rear suspension doesn't respond to spring rates the same as the front does, and that extra bias might help you get what you want without risking more understeer with a stiffer front bar and the snap oversteer of the stiffer rear bar.

[toeout]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Ya, the rates you have are fine in terms of the range, but the F/R bias is indeed important. The rear suspension doesn't respond to spring rates the same as the front does, and that extra bias might help you get what you want without risking more understeer with a stiffer front bar and the snap oversteer of the stiffer rear bar.

Like going to #400 in the back and putting the stock rear swaybar on? I'm just worried that it's too much of a compromise on less grippy surfaces and still pushy in Wilmington

[DocWalt]

My first event of the season. I have a lot to learn about the new car and setup. I really need to trust the car more often, you can see how timid I was in some places. FWIW 343/400 springs are way more balanced than I was expecting. Definitely a bit loose, but nowhere near "bad" IMO. Certainly not nationally competitive (especially for my first event in the car!), but I could at least sort of compensate with the dampers. I'm very happy with the Ohlins

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ5lW6j0E4w[/ame]

Oh, and I have another event tomorrow. I'm going to be exhausted, lol.