New Mazda RX Vision concept

[totopo]

Originally Posted by STZ

I don't think it's an unreasonable request like a 600hp 2000lb car for $15k dollars is.

The 370Z is in the price range, but has a more powerful engine and is heavier. What he wanted is probably a weaker engine which is cheaper combined with a lighter body which is more expensive. I completely agree with him; if there was a car in the ~35k range with ~280hp and ~250tq and is still considered light, I would get that over the twins.

So would freaking everyone else in the world. Everyone wants a sub 3000lb 300hp $30k car. And you think manafacturers have their head up their ass and just refuse to make such a car?!?!?!?!

I'm saying I don't really think its possible. A 250tq engine means a big v6 or a turbo i4 that is about the same weight, and heavy driveline components. Do you think that it is coincidence that all the 250tq cars are 32-3400 lbs? There are reliability, emissions, and crash standard issues.

Like why doesn't Mazda just drop in the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo i4 into the miata???? Or why doesnt Subaru drop in the fa20dit in the twins?!?!?!?!

It's because they can't. Or it will be prohibitively expensive or heavy.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by totopo

So would freaking everyone else in the world. Everyone wants a sub 3000lb 300hp $30k car. And you think manafacturers have their head up their ass and just refuse to make such a car?!?!?!?!

...

It's because they can't. Or it will be prohibitively expensive or heavy.

Then we can all complain about the lousy interior plastics and road noise.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

Then we can all complain about the lousy interior plastics and road noise.

Isn't that the primary purpose of this website?

[vh_supra26]

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Can't find the 944/FC comparison

FC vs 944 Turbo vs Starion vs 300ZX Turbo


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BEBKkul1g"]MotorWeek | Retro Review: '86 944Turbo Vs Starion ESI-R, RX-7 Turbo, And 300ZX Turbo - YouTube[/ame]








FB vs 944


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVVhXcArgEw"]MotorWeek | Retro Review: '83 944 Vs. RX-7 - YouTube[/ame]

[STZ]

Originally Posted by totopo

So would freaking everyone else in the world. Everyone wants a sub 3000lb 300hp $30k car. And you think manafacturers have their head up their ass and just refuse to make such a car?!?!?!?!

I'm saying I don't really think its possible. A 250tq engine means a big v6 or a turbo i4 that is about the same weight, and heavy driveline components. Do you think that it is coincidence that all the 250tq cars are 32-3400 lbs? There are reliability, emissions, and crash standard issues.

Like why doesn't Mazda just drop in the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo i4 into the miata???? Or why doesnt Subaru drop in the fa20dit in the twins?!?!?!?!

It's because they can't. Or it will be prohibitively expensive or heavy.

I didn't say I wanted it to be sub $30k or 300hp. You keep pushing the argument to the extremes just to prove your point that it's not possible. I say it's damn well possible. To have a 10k premium, making it almost 140% the price of the twins, for a car thats ~35k and has decent torque/hp in the 200s whilst weighing in the middle of the 370z muscle range and the twins lightweight range.

All you've done is strawman and exaggerate what other people say to, ...actually I don't even know what your goal is. To belittle the people that want something reasonable?

There's an obvious gap between what the twins offer and the next level up that no car manufacturer has really worked on filling, and it seems that it would be reasonable that if the RX-7 had a successor it would fill that place just from looking at the design philosophy behind the FD3S.

86: 200hp/151tq/~2700lb/6.2 0-60/$26k

The next step up is basically a 370z, I can't think of any closer alternatives. 370z: 332hp/270tq/~3250lb/~4.7 0-60/29k

But, I would like a car that's not a miata/brz and is still focused on cornering dynamics rather than straight line performance. I don't need it to have a sub 5s 0-60, but at least quick enough that family sedans don't overtake you with ease.

So looking at those, why wouldn't a car with ~250hp/~21t0q/~300lb for 35k be reasonable?

If you want to belittle people for believing in something that should be possible just to feel like you have superior knowledge or something I have no means to stop you and you're free to continue, but my participation in that conversation ends here if you wish to take the conversation further along that road.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by STZ

I don't think it's an unreasonable request like a 600hp 2000lb car for $15k dollars is.

Agree, it is not unreasonable at all.

The 370Z is in the price range, but has a more powerful engine and is heavier. What he wanted is probably a weaker engine which is cheaper combined with a lighter body which is more expensive.

A lighter body is *CHEAPER*, not more expensive! Less materials, less $$$. The 370Z is heavy because it is literally an Infiniti luxury sedan with some length chopped off. Clean-slate smaller/lighter-weight genuine sports car could cost less than the bloated overweight 370Z while offering superior power to weight.

Bring it!

[WolfpackS2k]

^Bingo. ZDan gets it.

[gravitylover]

Originally Posted by raven1231

According to all the news "sources" the kia stinger will be here by the end of 2017.

Something about that car really talks to me. Good timing too, my kids should be ready to head off to college so our extra car won't need a back seat

[STZ]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Agree, it is not unreasonable at all.



A lighter body is *CHEAPER*, not more expensive! Less materials, less $$$. The 370Z is heavy because it is literally an Infiniti luxury sedan with some length chopped off. Clean-slate smaller/lighter-weight genuine sports car could cost less than the bloated overweight 370Z while offering superior power to weight.

Bring it!

> A lighter body is *CHEAPER*, not more expensive! Less materials, less $$$.

Well... that involves sacrificing comfort if you go down that route. I was thinking of just making more parts out of carbon fiber, hence what I meant when I said lighter is more expensive.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by STZ

>

Well... that involves sacrificing comfort if you go down that route. I was thinking of just making more parts out of carbon fiber, hence what I meant when I said lighter is more expensive.

Mazda wouldn't even have to do that since they just spent a lot of R&D money on the super light ND Miata platform. Any new RX-X vehicle would undoubtedly be based on a stretched version of the ND to amortize the cost of that platform. Any sports car based off a stretched ND should weigh significantly less than the 370z shortened Nissan/Infiniti FM platform.

[reni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

A lighter body is *CHEAPER*, not more expensive! Less materials, less $$$. The 370Z is heavy because it is literally an Infiniti luxury sedan with some length chopped off. Clean-slate smaller/lighter-weight genuine sports car could cost less than the bloated overweight 370Z while offering superior power to weight.

No. If auto manufacturers could just easily remove structural parts and have a lighter car that still meets rigidity and safety requirements, they would have done it already.

Making a car lighter requires more engineering and more testing, which probably leads to something that is more difficult/time consuming to build in the factory, not to mention more expensive materials would have to likely be used as well.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by STZ

So looking at those, why wouldn't a car with ~250hp/~21t0q/~300lb for 35k be reasonable?

That is a lot more reasonable, and a very different car than the original request, which was 300hp, 2800lbs, and $30-35k

That would be an interesting car, but I am curious as to the market size.
The rx-8 was 230hp, 212ftlb, 3050lbs, and sold like crap. Everyone thought it needed more hp still. Though part of it could be the wankel is kind of suck and full of problems no one wants to deal with and it didnt'r really put out even that much power.
The somewhat similar IS300 (215hp, 218tq, 3200lbs, $30k in 05ish) had like 0 market. would the form factor and 200lbs edge it into a more popular niche? Does the IS have 200lbs to lose? I hope someone makes it so we can find out.

At that weight you dudge that much closer to the range of the camaro (and mustang), which is very hard to beat in value (295tq, 275hp, 3340lbs or 284 tq, 335hp, 3400lbs).

hmmm, since i'm bored. for low tq and high hp, you'd want an NA engine, and no way any 4-cylinder will reach it. So it would have to probably be a 2.5L or 3.0L v-6 with variable valve timing and direct injection. To keep costs down you will probably have to go with an off the shelf block. 30-35k would probably price out bmw, audi, and benz. Honda and VW don't seem interested in RWD.

toyota:
3GR-FSE: 3.0L, 252 hp, 231 ftlb
4GR-FSE: 2.5L, 204hp, 192 ftlb

Nissan:
VQ30DD: 3.0L, 255 hp, 239 ftlb
VQ25HR: 2.5L, 232 hp, 194 ftlb
I wonder what a VQ25VHR or VQ30VHR would look like...

ford:
... can they make a 2.5L cyclone v6?

GM:
LP1: 2.8L, 210hp, 194 ftlb
LFW: 3.0L, 264hp, 222 ftlb

Mazda:
??? can they make a wankel pass US emissions? is that what they are going to show at the tokyo auto show?????
or will they make a skyactive v6???
i4 2.5L skyactive: 184hp, 185 ftlb...

maybe it is possible. Maybe GM should make a car below the camaro. would probably be hard to market. maybe throw it under cadillac instead. maybe nissan should make a new silvia with a vq25vhr. I don't think toyota has space in their lineup between the 86 and the rumored supra.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

That would be an interesting car, but I am curious as to the market size.
The rx-8 was 230hp, 212ftlb, 3050lbs, and sold like crap. Everyone thought it needed more hp still..

The RX-8 sold reasonably well, only beaten by the 350Z in sales during the '00s for RWD Japanese coupes and the NC sustained sales over a longer duration, it outsold the S2000 every year (but was a 4 year newer design), the sales nosedived as the first generation motors had terrible reliability reputations, massive recall, Mazda extending powertrain warranty to a ridiculous length that ate into the profit margin, and despite fixing the reliability issues in the later years and the replacement motors.

Definitely a small market segment, however there are cars produced in smaller numbers that are seemingly viable business cases. For instance the NC hasn't sold more than a few hundred units per month in over 6 years, similar volumes to what Subaru is selling the BRZ in NA.