BRZ after Cayman S and M3... is it a downgrade? NOW WITH VIDEO!

[Jaylyons1]

Originally Posted by utekineir

10 pages to compare a car with a msrp <half?

Isn't that like comparing a mid trim corolla to a well optioned 3 series?

Yes, the MSRP is quite a drop but many people (myself included) shop at a certain price. This includes the second hand market as well.

You can get a low mileage E46 M3 for less than a new FR-S/BRZ pretty easily. The only real debate that remains is maintenance cost. You can get a decent E90/E92/E93 for under $30k but it's much harder to find them.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Jaylyons1

Yes, the MSRP is quite a drop but many people (myself included) shop at a certain price. This includes the second hand market as well.

You can get a low mileage E46 M3 for less than a new FR-S/BRZ pretty easily. The only real debate that remains is maintenance cost. You can get a decent E90/E92/E93 for under $30k but it's much harder to find them.

For the sake of argument with the build quality and other comparisons used to new is comparing apples and oranges.

I rode in an 09 cayman a guy picked up this spring for low 30 range a few weeks ago. Nice car. The carpet was awesome, the ride felt great, car was very solid, the practicality was less than frz, mpg less than frz, maintenance costs higher than frz.

What killed me though, the soft touch material on the center console was peeling no different than a 10 year old vw. One thing i've realized is that the basic cheap hard plastic shit feeling interiors hold up far better over time than the nice soft touch rubbery surfaces and pop out cup holders. Like a cockroach surviving nuclear war.


Id say the fact that the discussion of a 25k car vs 50+ even taking place is a credit to the tin can shitbox in question.

[SirBrass]

And proof that it's neither cheap or a shitbox in quality. Inexpensive? Yeah. Cheap? Hell no.

And whoever said the cx-5 had a more quality feeling interior, I'd like to know what drugs you're on, b/c that's some quality dope considering that the limited model brz is just as nice, if not better than the Mazda in question, not unquestionably worse.

Porsches are the gold standard, not the main standard. Of course they're better in every respect. That's also why you pay more than 2x as much for one than you will for one of the twins. But for the price point, you get a great car whose handling is top notch... That's much harder to improve than adding power.

You can always add power. You can't simply add or swap in excellent balance & handling. For under $30k, this is one of the best damn driver's sports cars made. Proof? The car most folks want to compare it to is the Cayman, which is astronomically out of the 30k price range unless seriously beaten on & used.

The cheap interior argument just smacks of delusion. It not being to your tastes is one thing (the fr-s interior is not to my tastes), but calling it cheap & low quality is to prove you've got "impossible to please" blinders on.

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[Jaylyons1]

Originally Posted by utekineir

For the sake of argument with the build quality and other comparisons used to new is comparing apples and oranges.

I rode in an 09 cayman a guy picked up this spring for low 30 range a few weeks ago. Nice car. The carpet was awesome, the ride felt great, car was very solid, the practicality was less than frz, mpg less than frz, maintenance costs higher than frz.

What killed me though, the soft touch material on the center console was peeling no different than a 10 year old vw. One thing i've realized is that the basic cheap hard plastic shit feeling interiors hold up far better over time than the nice soft touch rubbery surfaces and pop out cup holders. Like a cockroach surviving nuclear war.


Id say the fact that the discussion of a 25k car vs 50+ even taking place is a credit to the tin can shitbox in question.

lol. Yea, I haven't driven any Porsche since before the Cayman existed so I don't know if their quality has improved, but I do know the 2001 boxter I drove was not the pinnacle of quality.

I think once the 2.5L mid cycle refresh (if that does actually happen) will greatly improve the car all around. If they release a sport package of some sort with better tires as well then I foresee a lot more higher end cars getting taken down.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by Suberman

M3 is very overrated.

Keep the BRZ, it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys. For a sedan buy something practical. I bought a Jaguar XF 3.0 SC AWD. Use your imagination.

Keep the BRZ, nobody makes a car that is more fun to drive at the moment.

Lol, sounds like you haven't owned an M3. Hardly overrated. Expensive as hell, but I want another one for a track car. FRS will stay the DD

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Suberman

That's the beauty of opinions. They can't be true or false.

thats the beauty of unrestricted negatives. i doubt you have driven every car in production so i dont know how you can even form that opinion with any sort of credibility. also, opinion and fact arent mutually exclusive so they are often true or false

[wulfgang]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

And whoever said the cx-5 had a more quality feeling interior, I'd like to know what drugs you're on, b/c that's some quality dope considering that the limited model brz is just as nice, if not better than the Mazda in question, not unquestionably worse.

I own both a CX-5 (base) and a BRZ (limited). The dash plastic, the key/fob, the radio and climate control knobs/buttons/layout, the door plastic, the cupholders... all of these are unquestionably better in the CX-5 than the same things on the BRZ. Maybe the nicer plastic won't age as well -- I don't know -- but right now, in 2013, the CX-5 has better interior quality. After 10k miles on the CX-5, it is still quieter inside than my 800 mile BRZ, which has already begun developing slight squeaks and rattles.

Your comments about the Caymans in the $30k range being "seriously beat on on and used," well... that is just plain incorrect. Look around!

The rest is all opinion. One man's cast-off Civic is another man's dream machine.

[wulfgang]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Lol, sounds like you haven't owned an M3. Hardly overrated. Expensive as hell, but I want another one for a track car. FRS will stay the DD

I'd do the opposite and make the FRS the track car. I found the M3 to be perfect for the street, but a bit heavy for the track. Plus, it is fun to pass higher-powered cars on the track while driving a gutless wonder.

[Tgionet]

Originally Posted by wulfgang

Your comments about the Caymans in the $30k range being "seriously beat on on and used," well... that is just plain incorrect. Look around!

Let's not kid anyone, a 30k Cayman isn't a 30k car. You still have the running costs of a 50-80k car and you likely won't have a warranty if something does go wrong.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by wulfgang

I'd do the opposite and make the FRS the track car. I found the M3 to be perfect for the street, but a bit heavy for the track. Plus, it is fun to pass higher-powered cars on the track while driving a gutless wonder.

Thought about that….. The E46 really is the perfect track car. 333 horse, And a lot of the weight can be eliminated by removing the leather seats and the sound deadening. The thing pulls like a raped ape too, which is something the FRS doesn't do, sadly.

The FRS is fun, but it would take a turbo to hit 300 horse.

Although, passing a porsche or a corvette in an FRS would make my day

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

Thought about that….. The E46 really is the perfect track car. 333 horse, And a lot of the weight can be eliminated by removing the leather seats and the sound deadening. The thing pulls like a raped ape too, which is something the FRS doesn't do, sadly.

The FRS is fun, but it would take a turbo to hit 300 horse.

Although, passing a porsche or a corvette in an FRS would make my day

Importance of weight depends on the track, but even after removing seats and sound deadening, the E46 will be significantly heavier than the FT86 or the E30.

This old article was a little sensational and made some assumptions, but is mostly on target: http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/01/24/op...r-is-a-toyota/

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats the beauty of unrestricted negatives. i doubt you have driven every car in production so i dont know how you can even form that opinion with any sort of credibility. also, opinion and fact arent mutually exclusive so they are often true or false

Opinion and fact are mutually exclusive. They are completely different ideas.

Although, existentially speaking, "fact" is also merely commonly held opinion based on an unverifiable assumption that all humans perceive the world identically through their five senses.

You might be surprised at the number of "facts" that are merely widely held opinions.

As for driving every car to know which I believe to be the most fun to drive....that is surely unnecessary. I know a Chevy impala is no fun to drive. Oh, wait a tic I did drive one of those.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Opinion and fact are mutually exclusive. They are completely different ideas.

Although, existentially speaking, "fact" is also merely commonly held opinion based on an unverifiable assumption that all humans perceive the world identically through their five senses.

You might be surprised at the number of "facts" that are merely widely held opinions.

As for driving every car to know which I believe to be the most fun to drive....that is surely unnecessary. I know a Chevy impala is no fun to drive. Oh, wait a tic I did drive one of those.

okay im done.