Compression ratio 12.5:1. Bye-bye Super charger & Turbo build?

[WingsofWar]

whoa whoa whoa....ok this thread is getting muddied up.

Sorry Driftster, I had to reread everything you have posted these past few pages..and I THINK I finally understand what your talking about.

But you know what your problem is? You talk to much! you add so much information and fluff to your posts that your point gets lost and nobody really gets what your trying to say so they respond to you without addressing what your post means.

What your trying to say....correct me if im wrong!

1. That this engine specifically, could be more friendly to CURRENT average turners if this engine was a basic design. Without DI, without fancy pistons, without high compression. To cater to a wider variety of current tuners be it N/A or Turbo users..Having that basic design for tuners to build on without defined factory limits. Right?

2. That your angry that Toyota and Subaru, very capable companies built a engine for this sports car, that has very strong defined limitations. And they have the audacity to claim the engine and car was built for enthusiasts and tuners..when only a small population of tuners can even freely precision tune this "tuner friendly car"

IF this is correct...i totally get you... but you really didn't have to post SO much information to get your point across.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by blur

So swap an Ej207. I dont see the problem here.

3-4k for engine, 3-4k for turbo kit, 1-2k for swap in.

If your doing your self your still spending 6k-8k on a new car
9-10k if you have a mechanic do it.

[Allch Chcar]

I'm not reading all of that!

Originally Posted by koyv90

3-4k for engine, 3-4k for turbo kit, 1-2k for swap in.

If your doing your self your still spending 6k-8k on a new car
9-10k if you have a mechanic do it.

An EJ207 is already turboed. A common rule of thumb is to estimate an engine swap is twice the cost of the engine. It would be DIY or far too expensive to be reasonable.

A turbo kit might make +50HP before stuff gets dangerous , a EJ207 swap would make +100HP with room to grow.

There is no cheap option either way.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I'm not reading all of that!



An EJ207 is already turboed. A common rule of thumb is to estimate an engine swap is twice the cost of the engine. It would be DIY or far too expensive to be reasonable.

A turbo kit might make +50HP before stuff gets dangerous , a EJ207 swap would make +100HP with room to grow.

There is no cheap option either way.

Well granted that the people who are wanting turbo and stuff seem to want 400+hp a better turbo kit would be needed.
Either way your looking at over 5k+ to buy the engine and put it in. on a already 20k+ car

[cyde01]

well it's true that the bluetop 4a-ge had lower compression, big ports and a strong block that could handle a lot of boost with stock internals.

later generations were less boost friendly stock with higher comp, itbs, etc etc but still remain very popular with tuners.

i see fa20/4u-gse as toyota/subaru starting off with the blacktop/silvertop (optimized n/a engine)rather than the blue top (not a lot of stock performance but good for n/a tuning or boosting). if toyota/subaru tried to build an engine that was good both for boosting and n/a tuning, i believe we would have all been disappointed by the stock performance numbers.

either way a supercharged version is supposedly in the works. who knows, maybe with some creative plumbing even the turbo fa20 going in the next gen wrx might fit in the frs/brz.

[cossey]

The vast majority of cars won't get tuned. The high compression and direct injection do make a large difference to fuel consumption.

The pressure on OEMs to improve fuel consumption is fast becoming the first priority for new cars, whether it be from customers or from governments. If they had ditched the hgih tech engines for sonething more tuner friendly they probably would have also had to ditch the idea of selling the car in Europe too and that is the biggest sports car market in the world.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Driftster

I giggle at these threads, no more than 5 maybe 6 months ago I was in here saying this cars boost potential will be all but non existent, the direct injection and it's application will be the limiting factor, because with direct injection comes higher compression for fuel economy........

I may have missed it, but what exactly is your point within the context of this thread [12.5:1 static CR and adding boost]?

The only thing I can make out is:
*You're scared aftermarket tuners are incompetent with DI strategy
*OEM has locked or encrypted the ECU, making reverse engineering of ECU strategy difficult
*static CR is too high to add boost and meet power demands on pump gas

Does that just about sum it up?

[fa5tco]

Originally Posted by Driftster

or it could as engine orientation shouldn't affect the tuners ability what so ever...but that's yet another "what if"



They dislike the ideas of turbo's yet their historically best cars were primarily turbocharged.....AWD i can of course do without, and even turbo not being part of the car completely is a perfectly understandable situation, as it's much easier and much more sensible to add a turbo than to remove one and tune properly.

The problem is they didn't produce a blank canvas open to the tuners...

The AE86 fell into this category yes as did pretty much every "True to the core sports car" to roll out of a japanese factort to date...the 4AG engine did an amazing job at making itself available to anyone who could envision what they wanted their engine to do..

Other engines that did the same thing?

The L24, still a widely used and tuned engine for grassroots events, still capable and still competitive, same goes for L26's and L28s..

Then you have Volvo B18's amd B20 engines, AMC small blocks and big blocks and all the other engines that made their hay day in some way shape or form under the hood of some old stamped steel behemoth with white walls and chrome 5mph bumpers...

But those all shared things in common that this new engine has jack to do with, and no matter WHAT they try and do to the car or the engine it will never have that ability or feature.

When they stuck a direct injection system onto the car they ruined ANY chance of this car being a "working mans engine" or an "engine for the tuners"..Like it or not, they did..

To be the best experience philosophically they would have to do away with every aspect of this car that throws it into the category of new age "technologically advanced" Atari game.

They include a piston design....
vvv



(not saying this is the piston but the style fits)

A design in which does not allow for the minute incremental changes of internal dimensions such as bore/stroke rod/stroke ratio...hell even the inclusion of a larger head gasket to try and drop compression a half a point is completely thrown out of wack by this piece of metal..

The changing of the compression and the change in the actual location of the piston dome at time of fuel injection changes the entire atomization of the fuel....Potentially causing either crap fuel economy, detonation, horrible efficiency in the combustion cycle...any number of power robbing possibilities..


They add this...


A fueling system designed to work with diesel fuel injection due to the combustion rate and in cylinder temps..
NOW instead of that being applied in such, we are adding a subsequent/secondary closed loop system than pressurizes gasoline to thousands and thousands of psi..


And these are just the tips of the iceberg in a car that is sure to be such a latent "futuristic" automobile..


They produced a car that off the car lot will feel good in the avg drivers hands, it will feel like you're a smart gentleman who knows how to flip a paddle switch and gas it around a corner....A car that to the naked eye seems like a perfect homage to all the late "sports cars" that have served our crowd so well..

However they also produced a car that uses 2 forms of injection and a compression ratio that is so high you'll worry about detonation using regular unleaded JUST for the blatantly foolish reason of appealing to the EPA on a couple more tests with reason.
They produce a cramped engine bay in a FR layout car simply because they want to 1-up the competition in a silly pen15 measuring game about "center of gravity" when they could have just worked with other aspects of the car and resulted in an engine bay in which "ALL tuners" could easily fit their hands, wrenches and parts under the hood..



What they did with this car is basically what Michael Bay did to the transformers..

YES..every young kid under 14 or whatever is going to say "wow this is the best movie i've seen using robots omg this is phenomenal"

but the tuner crowd (the people with experience...The people who liked the original transformers) will get into the car and get into the movie saying..

"This seems familiar, i understand what they were TRYING to do..but all they succeeded in doing is ruining what made the original sports cars AWESOME, did a spin on what THEY felt was important but it turned out to be completely unimportant, and succeeded in making me miss my old show/old car 100x more than i would ever miss this"

The combination of port and direct injection is going to help a TON with the people who want to go FI. Its not going to hinder it. Especially if the fueling set up can easily be converted to e85. There is also plenty of room to mount a turbo kit aftermarket. EASILY. The extra few inches in piping isnt going to make so much of a difference that when you drive it you are going to think "damn that extra 5 hp would sure come in handy now"

Everything you are saying is almost complete over generalization and paranoia, with a smidge of 86 hate thrown in for good measure.

I dont see what all the worry is about. This is going to be a very popular car. The aftermarket support is going to be great.

Besides that a 2.0l na motor making 200hp from the factory with pre installed 12.5:1 pistons would be a K20 owners dream come true. Im sure someone will develop some cams and with bolt ons and a tune Im sure there will be 210-225whp 86's running around in no time. if the aftermarket community wants this car to be fast. It will be fast.

Frankly knowing subaru I am more worried about how the tranny would hold up if someone boosts the car to the 250-275whp range, than I am about the engine internals, or turbo kit fitment.

[fa5tco]

By the way. A turbo wrap blanket will keep the heat down. You can touch one of those blankets with your bare hands after someones been running the car. No worries about "melting a serpentine belt" or whatever hyper paranoia people were blathering about a few pages ago. Calm down.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Driftster

I'm sorry but you couldn't be more incorrect with this statement..

To make the car more capable/able to be turbo'd without more work than it's worse would require some modification to the current engine yes but read this thoroughly before you comment..

-Yes it would require a drop in compression ratio, would this affect the power produced by the engine? No not at all.
A Compression of 12.5:1 is no where near "necessary" to produce 197HP out of a 2.0L

Correct. BUT a high compression ratio IS required to produce a 200hp 2.0L engine AT A LOW COST.

- The drastically sky high compression atio of this car serves ONE purpose above all else in this application and it is not the production of power, it is the fuel economy.

Fair enough I say. As others have said, so much more emphasis is being put on fuel economy these days. It's the automotive industry advancing technology - something I would NEVER try to delay.

LOWERING the compression yet maintaining the 197 power level is not rocket science either, as there are a dozen if not more cars on the market right now producing these same figures.

See below.

Whether the power be produced through cam timing valve timing

Cost

high valve angels

Already using Toyota "G" head which stands for a "performance" valve angle.

phantom pipes

Cost.

ONTOP of that, lowering the compression ratio on this engine BEFORE giving it to the N/A tuners NOW gives the N/A tuner even MORE opportunity to produce power...

How so? Given the same engine w/ different CR, each with a suitable tune, the higher compression engine will make more torque (+ power), as long as it's not detonating/pre-igniting.

On to your second point..

1.. The IS-F has a compression ratio of 11.8:1, I don't know where you got 13.5:1, but that is incorrect.

My mistake. I know there was a Toyota engine using 13.5:1... But searching on google only brings up the Prius , I'm sure it was more performance-oriented than that!

2.. I have no idea where you're getting your "limit" etc as if there is some cap on compression ratio's in which they become ineffective.

There is no hard "limit" as per say, but there are areas where a certain setup of engine (eg port injected engine) where the compression ratio tends to start causing problems with detonation, when using pump fuel.

The compression ratio isn't the ONLY deciding factor in boost naturally, but you're also treating the atomization the in cylinder injector brings on as a cure all for detonation, when in fact it's more of a band aid....It's more of a "persistent methanol" injection

I know this. Give me a bit more credit, eh?

Have a look around the industry buddy, and look at all the new cars which are being force fed like crazy in the aftermarket..you'll see they all share a
common bond..

They don't use direct injection..

Mazda 3 MPS uses both a turbo, direct injection, and is being modded?

Except if you understood how imperative the dish on that piston was to the effectiveness of the direct injection you'd understand how your attempt at "making my point about the shape of the piston next to moot" ......was moot...

The combination of the in cylinder atomization with the dish shape is what gives proper cylinder cooling and proper /more efficient burn..

without that Dish shape...all you're doing is spraying fuel onto a side of a cylinder bore..

Change the piston to one which causes the same dish when the injector fires. ie. match it up to the change in stroke you have made, so that the injector fires into the same place even though you've changed the stroke.

Just like that huh?


Lol so just spend 10-20,000 on a 20,000 dollar car..

genius move there..

As I said, if you don't like it, get a different car? Many people have spent far more than what the car they're modding is worth by doing mods that don't give them too much gain.

Except when modding becomes a difficult task/chore and more of a hassle producing minimal gains for maximum work.....the modding/tuning of the car hits a crest/comes to a head...and from there very little development takes place, and the car spends the rest of it's years in niche groups and club meetings filed with people who love blowing their money on unsuccessful products

The introduction of fuel injection over a carburetor would have been given the same treatment when it was introduced, and now look where it is - used in every production car, and the tuners now have no problem tuning it to be efficient and powerful. Hell, I learnt how the "more advanced" fuel injection works before I learnt how a carb worked... and guess which one seems easier and more simple to me?

Originally Posted by fa5tco

By the way. A turbo wrap blanket will keep the heat down. You can touch one of those blankets with your bare hands after someones been running the car. No worries about "melting a serpentine belt" or whatever hyper paranoia people were blathering about a few pages ago. Calm down.

Tried saying this a couple of pages ago. Though I also said it's likely Toyota/Subaru would come up with something more elaborate if they were to do it. Can't really see them just putting a turbo blanket over the turbo, if they decide to turbo it stock. XD

[MightyAl]

Originally Posted by Snaps

The introduction of fuel injection over a carburetor would have been given the same treatment when it was introduced, and now look where it is - used in every production car, and the tuners now have no problem tuning it to be efficient and powerful. Hell, I learnt how the "more advanced" fuel injection works before I learnt how a carb worked... and guess which one seems easier and more simple to me?

This is my thought exactly. All this whining and crying over the DI. If this car can sell 1,000 cars a month world wide then the aftermarket will find a way to add forced induction. If there is money to be made doing it then it will be done. It is funny to watch people stress over things that aren't even known yet.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by fa5tco

Frankly knowing subaru I am more worried about how the tranny would hold up if someone boosts the car to the 250-275whp range, than I am about the engine internals, or turbo kit fitment.

Transmission is Aisin/Toyota. Of Altezza fame. Meaning a J160 (Toyota designation). Modified of course.

A similar unit (AZ6, Aisin designation) would also be found in the RX-8, S2000, S15 Silvia etc.

It's easily at least as strong as the W58 (400hp|300ft/bs?), although we really wouldn't know where the limits are of this particular box until it's in the hands of capable tuners and they reach the point where they break them.... So speculation is fairly useless. The auto is IS-F based, for sure that will easily support at least 400hp/400ft-lbs torque as they say it's the same (minus 2 gears).

I think the tranny and diff are the least of your worries. Everybody ranting about power this and power that keep forgetting how light this car is. At 2850lbs with 400whp, it's approaching the power-weight ratio of the LFA/458 Italia/Gallardo Superleggera/Z06 C6 vette. At 300whp it's already blown past BPU Supras, IS-Fs, M3s, C63s, RB26 Swapped S13/14s, Standard C6 vettes and approaching GT-R levels. Seriously guys... As an engineer, tuner, racer and car lover I admire your enthusiasm but please, grab some perspective.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Driftster

I'd like to know where the plenty of room for the turbo lies..

P.s....Space much?

I haven't seen anyone be able to prove either way so far. If you have proof a turbo can't fit in the engine bay, please share.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Snaps

My mistake. I know there was a Toyota engine using 13.5:1... But searching on google only brings up the Prius , I'm sure it was more performance-oriented than that!

1LR-GUE V10, 12.0:1 Compression ratio.