SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[chucky12012]

Originally Posted by bholliday

There is some additional discussion of the Bilstein B6 and B8 in the thread referenced above. I am considering revalving Bilstein B6's for my car for CS. However, I am also still considering STX

Going this route with the B6's right now...

[qoncept]

Is the B6 a "better" damper than Konis (if you ignore the adjustability) ? I shouldn't need struts for at least a few years but who knows.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Is the B6 a "better" damper than Konis (if you ignore the adjustability) ? I shouldn't need struts for at least a few years but who knows.

the argument is mono vs twin tube and gas vs oil


various tidbits of internet crumbs would point to the bilsteins better, but ymmv.


the bilsteins would be my first choice, and I'm currently planning on getting a custom set of bilsteins through a place out of California called "fat cat motorsports", who are more known in the Miata circles.

[renfield90]

The big issue between the Bilsteins and anything else is the lack of an adjuster. If you know exactly what you want your damping curves to look like, this isn't a problem.

If I knew what I wanted my damping curves to look like, I'd get the B6 and get it rebuilt to my spec.

The second big issue is who's allowed to rebuild. Koni restricts rebuilding to select companies and that means longer turnaround time. Anyone with the knowhow can rebuild a Bilstein.

[G_Ride]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

the argument is mono vs twin tube and gas vs oil


various tidbits of internet crumbs would point to the bilsteins better, but ymmv.


the bilsteins would be my first choice, and I'm currently planning on getting a custom set of bilsteins through a place out of California called "fat cat motorsports", who are more known in the Miata circles.

I know a few people with custom valved shocks from Fat Cat Motorsports, RX-8 and Miata drivers involved in autox or road racing. Most of them seemed to like what they got.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by renfield90

The big issue between the Bilsteins and anything else is the lack of an adjuster. If you know exactly what you want your damping curves to look like, this isn't a problem.

What if I have poor enough feel that messing with a knob hurts I more than it helps? I mean, I could set a Koni (to the middle or whatever) and forget it no problem, but if I touch it during or before an event I'm definitely not going to make the car handle better. I've been there. The best I could do is get one of the better drivers in the region to drive it in some fun runs and dial it in a bit. But, as good as some of them are, I'm not at all convinced I'll be any faster in the car.

So, for the moment, I'll consider just the two options based on my budget. My question is, is either better than stock? Our events are almost all on concrete. Different sites, but all concrete.

- Bilstein B6 off the shelf
- Konis + a few fun runs worth of dialing in by one of the top drivers in the region

My gut tells me I'll probably keep it stock.

The second big issue is who's allowed to rebuild. Koni restricts rebuilding to select companies and that means longer turnaround time. Anyone with the knowhow can rebuild a Bilstein.

"Restricts" ? How do they do that? Do you need a special tool they'll only sell to approved shops?

Just a bit more about my background - I've been autoxing since 2003 with a few years off in the middle. Half in my 2004 WRX (STX and later SM) and now 2 seasons in my CS BRZ. In the WRX every single change I ever made was to make the car looser. I always overdrove, I think it was a really poorly suited car for me and I was never happy with the handling. I had both Tein coilovers and Konis to play with at one point and during events I was always just softening up the front, stiffening the rear and doing same with tire pressures. My tendency SEEMS to be to make cars harder to handle. I make them snap oversteer, I probably always used too much steering input in sweepers and poor throttle modulation the occasional spin.

In the BRZ I was instantly a much, much better driver (after my first event where I had to have a "talking to" because I DNF'd so bad). I'm much smoother and more deliberate, I'm getting closer to cones, I'm not hitting every cone, I'm not overdriving and my tires are lasting 5x as long (literally!). All I've done is RS3s, 5mm spacers, a Strano front bar and maxed camber with crash bolts. I think it's quite well dialed in for our events but it does still want to push through sweeping turns. But I don't have the right kind of butt to tell me if it could be better.

I've read every suspension tuning guide and flowchart there is. In the WRX I spent my time between runs checking tire temps and pressures and turning knobs. Probably why I was so inconsistent. I knew a bunch of guidelines and tried to apply them but I never did it right. With the BRZ I've accepted that I'm a pretty decent driver but I can't set up a car to save my life. I HAVE finally had some minor success playing with tire pressures this past season. I think maybe I've advanced enough as a driver to SLOWLY start playing with adjustments again. Just waiting for a thumbs up to pull the trigger.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by qoncept

My gut tells me I'll probably keep it stock.

Probably a good call. I think the OEM damper is pretty close to spot on. Where a knob helps is for fine tuning specific handling characteristics.

I wouldn't buy a B6 and NOT revalve it. You're better off with the Konis given the similarity in price.

Originally Posted by qoncept

"Restricts" ? How do they do that? Do you need a special tool they'll only sell to approved shops?

I'm not sure on the particulars. Bottom line is if you bring your Konis to Joe's Shock Shop down the street he can't/won't touch 'em - and even if he did, you lose your lifetime warranty.

IMO the right way to use the knob on the shock is to find the correct setting and never touch it again. The moment you touch the knob in competition, you're making IMO a pretty drastic change - something that should be reserved for "dear God the car is awful" situations or if you need to adjust for wet conditions. Adjusting tire pressure is a much better mid-competition strategy.

Note that shock settings can change depending on the surface you're on, but in general what you set for one site will get you in the ballpark anywhere else. If you have a national talent in your region that is good at car setup (hint: he'll be the fastest guy not futzing with his shocks in grid) see if he'll help you dial it in, or even just ride along and say "the car does ______ at corner entry/middle/exit." Then see if you can spot that on your next run. You'll learn a ton this way.



Disclaimer: I'm a hack.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Probably a good call. I think the OEM damper is pretty close to spot on. Where a knob helps is for fine tuning specific handling characteristics.
...
IMO the right way to use the knob on the shock is to find the correct setting and never touch it again. The moment you touch the knob in competition, you're making IMO a pretty drastic change - something that should be reserved for "dear God the car is awful" situations or if you need to adjust for wet conditions. Adjusting tire pressure is a much better mid-competition strategy.

I agree - my problem was that I never found the correct settings. Looking back, the way I was overdriving I was never going to find it. Maybe it's time to try again now that I'm reasonably consistent.

(hint: he'll be the fastest guy not futzing with his shocks in grid) see if he'll help you dial it in, or even just ride along and say "the car does ______ at corner entry/middle/exit." Then see if you can spot that on your next run. You'll learn a ton this way.

Yeah, that's what I'd do, and I have a pretty good idea of who I'd ask. No one in the region made much noise at nationals but there are definitely a few who are much better than me.

Edit: If you want an idea of the level of feel I have for the car.. you could probably disconnect the front sway bar and I wouldn't know it. I'd see that my times suck, say the car felt like it didn't want to turn and then spend the rest of the day trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Happened in the WRX when an endlink broke. No idea how long I drove it like that.

[vroom4]

Originally Posted by bslate3

Is anyone running the 17x7 +42 Buddy Club P1 SF challenge? They are a little cheaper than RPF1's but a little heavier but still lighter than stock?

How do they hold up to autocross? Where's the best place to buy these?

Or should I just go with the trusty RPF1's?

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

I've used them for about 1.5 seasons. Good wheel. A bit heavier but a good deal cheaper!

Originally Posted by Biggins

Yes, I have a set too. No clue where to buy them new because I got them used, but I think they look cool. I can't remember exact weight, but I think they're 17-18 lbs.

I like them because I don't have to run spacers like I do with my Koseis.

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

They are about 17lbs., but have the right size for Street.

Buddy Club only has the SF Challenge version available last I checked.
The SF Challenge has the rim strip. If they just had the basic version, I bet it would sell better.

We have the BC wheels and are ready to ship. They are a significant amount cheaper than the RPF1 so a great option.

[bholliday]

For those looking for some information on shock curves, Andy @Racecomp Engineering posted a link to some good information on the subject.

You can find it here:

http://www.optimumg.com/technical/technical-papers/

Paper #4 gives the information on the shock curves specifically.

I think it will be helpful for those trying to understand how Bilsteins might be revalved for C Street. However, it doesn't answer what you might want to do differently, if anything, to help with the limitation of the stock springs. That's were the shock experts come in...

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Edit: If you want an idea of the level of feel I have for the car.. you could probably disconnect the front sway bar and I wouldn't know it. I'd see that my times suck, say the car felt like it didn't want to turn and then spend the rest of the day trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Happened in the WRX when an endlink broke. No idea how long I drove it like that.

And I put in one of my best efforts in the Civic at an event that I blew up a front shock at. No wonder it did best when at full soft.

I used to have big issues (now its just medium-sized) with Setting one: "Feels Good" Setting two: "That feels good, too" then I looked at the time I was putting in both ways. End result? I still found the way to get faster. The only way to develop feel, is to develop feel. Just go to an event (A TnT would be best) and take a few runs each with different settings. Stumbling into the right settings is still finding the right settings.

[VADERR]

So brake choices.... Seems to me that the Ferodo ds2500 is the pad of choice for autox. Anyone have any other preferences?

[Kido1986]

I tried the Carbotech AX6. They were excellent on the track but they were too on-off for autocross IMO.

[chucky12012]

I've been running Project Mu Club B-Force up front and been happy with them for both autox and on the street.