Scion FT-86 FR-S

[Calais]

not going to try and quote or direct this because you'll know who this is being directed to.

ok, no, just because your older or have a certain priced car dosnt make you a great driver(thats not what i said) but it make you less likely to do something stupid in a car that will say put it into a tree, wall or into another car(*konck* on wood). lets take the porsche example because thats whats being most talkd about they are $300,000+ in aus and yes in certain areas there are rich kids with these cars and they will do stupid things in them but the MAJORITY(and this is what lawyers AND the insurance companies go by) are older more mature drivers so the pressure to tone down a car isnt there(hence the few idiots dont ruin it for the rest of the people), and porsche have and always will make these cars because that is what porsche is all about, same as ferrari and the like.

But with toyota(i admit) they are much more likely to end up in the hands of these young brash and stupid drivers that do what they see on the tv in cars they know nothing about BUT now lets put it in scion and even more of these kids will get these cars(and no that dosnt mean more sale numbers because this car will then appeal to the mid life crisis buyers so sale numbers not that different just different demographic) and there will be even more risk of crashes more kids dying in this car(*knock* on wood) and the lawyers will say to toyota that they could get alot of lawsuits against them because of this and then toyota tones back the car(theyve done it before as pointed out by dinman) and stops the cars willingness to have the back step out(remember tada said that the car wasnt going to be the ideal 50/50 weight distraibution because that isnt best for drifting) so this cars personality will really change and it will no longer be the car we want anywhere in the world and im not talking about cosmetics im talking about what really counts whats under the skin thinga like engine, tranny, suspension set up and weight distribution when i say that.

[DantKR]

We can all hope that no matter the price of the car people don't want to do stupid shit that could endanger themselves or others on the road. But the majority of people that are putting others at danger are more so the ones that are texting, on cell phones, and generally just not paying attention. I have more issues with SUV drivers than I do w/ ricers.

I don't think this car will sell more under one badge than another. The $25k price will be a pretty decent deterrent for most younger drivers anyways. This will most likely be a "young professional's" car over a younger driver(16 - 21).

This car has LESS chances of being dialed back than the Mustang. So I'm not really seeing the issue. Mustangs will outsell the FT-86 4 to 1 no matter how good the FT is. MOST people just see HP. 305 vs 175 - 200, which do you think the general "young kid" will go for?

[dalli]

305 but a lot of young kids go for looks too so it just depends on them kids

[DantKR]

I just don't see them going for a FT over their well know civics :P

[oneday]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

oh man i know a few of you ppl..

It sucks that you had a bad instructor, there are stupid/ignorant people everywhere...it's be like saying, "I read something untrue on the internet, therefore all of the internet is wrong."

Originally Posted by 70NYD

also no offense but those posts are HUGE, interesting but HUGE.

I'll keep try to keep this one shorter.
[edit: I got the following message while attempting to post this reply]

Originally Posted by FT86Club.com

The text that you have entered is too long (9880 characters). Please shorten it to 8000 characters long.

Originally Posted by Dimman

One source of my rage :
[picture of heinous car]

That is a terrible atrocity of a car, but people make even the most beautiful cars completely repugnant with over the top modifications.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm going to pick on the Pastrana example.
OMG a tranversely mounted sidevalve V10 powering only the front wheels!

Wait a minute... That's suspiciously like a regular Subaru H4. OMG Only a top racing team laboratory could come up with such an advanced modification!

Nice, I don't even have to type a reply. I assume you just skimmed over what I said the first time, so I'll bold some to make it easier for you to glean something from:

Originally Posted by oneday

Yes, the Rally America STI looks like an STI you can buy at your local dealership and it even has a turbo charged boxer motor and AWD chassis. The engine in the rally STI shares only the base architecture and is built from the ground up to be a motor for a rally car.

You see, despite any stereotyped-perceived ignorance about cars because I occasionally instruct, I actually do know quite a bit about cars [yes, 70NYD, that one stung a little]. I do know what is under the hood of an RA Open Class car. I've even supplied teams with the parts for one.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And when we talk about realistic modifications that people do, it's downright minor. These things make way less power than a lot of modded street-driven Subies.

They're no more purpose built motors than what are in some of my friends' cars (strengthened internals, head work, minor mods to a stock crank)

Your friends do have purpose built motors. The 500whp STI sitting a mere 30 feet from me now has a purpose built motor. They are built for the purpose of making gobs of power and to be able to handle all of the heat and stresses associated with it. RA teams also do not get that power with Subaru OEM parts (you show me EJ257 with 350whp+ & stock internals & I'll show you a rebuild in T-3000 miles). The internals, turbo, FMIC and other bits you mentioned are all made by aftermarket companies or custom made by the team. I'd have conceded your point if the RA STI had raided the OEM parts bin to achieve the "minor mods" but alas, they did not, further reinforcing my point that these are purpose built motors and share little (save the bare block) with a showroom stock STI.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Alonso's Ferrari is a purpose-built racecar, the 'Camry' NASCARs are purpose-built racecars, and Foust's tC is a purpose-built race car.

Yeah, I know, I already said that.

Originally Posted by Dimman

The rest are still production-based

Referring to the DTM Audi, GA RX-8 and C6.R? They share body panels that look like the street car. The C6.R shares frame rails, steering rack and LSx motor architecture, but that's about it. The RX-8 uses a 3-rotor that has more in common with the 13B than the current Renesis found in the RX-8. The DTM is as much like a road going A4 as a NASCAR Impala is to the one on the street.

Originally Posted by Dimman

taking an STI to Open class rally spec is hardly the same thing as 'converting' a tC to be a RWD V8 smoke machine.

Not the same, but not entirely dissimilar. The tC is hardly the first or only FWD car converted to RWD for the sake of a racing-type endeavor. Stevens Motorsports did it with the GXP-R (which is now wheres a Camaro body--but the running gear is identical to the GXP-R).

Yes in a perfect world all cars would be AWD or RWD and race cars would be identical to their road going counterparts. But I doubt most people want no heat or radio, lexan windows, 6-pt harnesses and roll cage-inhibited visibility--I know I don't want glass windows, airbags, sound deadening and AC in a race car.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And at least the Ferrari will have more relevant technology trickle-down to its street cars than the Camry or tC...

I somewhat agree with you here...ugh, sorry, just threw up in my mouth a little...It is easier to see F1 tech make it's way into a $250K+ car than NASCAR tech into a $25K car...that is the price of performance, and it is part of the reason both Toyota and Honda got out of F1--no halo car to transfer tech to (the LF-A is a lot of F1 tech, but it took too long to get into production). I doubt there is any marquee that is getting tech from drifting. One of the highest tech pieces of equipment on my buddies AE86 is a plastic zip tie. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Dimman

However this is the first brand to fit the bill.

Hardly. Scion isn't even the the first brand to endorse their customer's desire to express their uniqueness. Porsche (once again I am comparing Scions to Porsches, god help me) offers full customization of interior/exterior/wheel & caliper colors...all through their website, it's quite amazing how ugly you can make a 911 if your pockets are deep enough.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Hell, even Hyundai decided to try to walk the walk

And at that point there was a dimwitted, short-sited, hater on a message board bashing Hyundai for even thinking about offering a RWD sports car.

Not even remotely realistic, but maybe Toyoda wants Scion to have a _real_ RWD car to go drifting with--would that shut you up?

Originally Posted by Dimman

What's maybe ignorant is being unaware that Toyota has already done this once with the SW20 MR-2.

Completely aware of the situation, ramifications and ultimate outcome [perhaps your skimming, once again, left you without the full scope of my previous posts?]. A RR =/= a FMR. They are not even close. I've driven MR2s in anger, I know they can be fast & capable, but if you get behind in your inputs it will definitely bite you in the ass. You won't see the same quick-to-kill-ya-handling from a FMR type of layout.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Both Nissan and Subaru have managed to shake up their 'meh' images with good product. If your tC had been a Camry or a Corolla coupe, you would have still bought it I'll assume.

I completely agree, damn it...now I got chunks. Yes, I would have bought the tC if it was the same car as a different model, and that's sort of my point in all of this: If FT-86 is what it is supposed to be, I'll be interested regardless of brand.

Originally Posted by Dimman

My big issue is if a company makes more money from a marketing-driven brand than from an innovation/engineering-drive brand, what does that mean for the future products?

But it's not like Toyota is not doing any advancement of tech. And the money spent on marketing is making Toyota as a whole, more profitable. If Scion were not giving Toyota a substantial ROI, the brand would be axed with a swiftness.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Did you hit '3' when you meant '4'?

No I meant 3. Mk3s are more form over function than the Mk4s. The Mk4 guys are still pushing the performance envelope of the motor (while it is often with polished or brightly powder coated performance bits, they are still pushing)--christ, one of the guys I work with has an 800whp Mk4 with stock internals...and he is embarrassed that is all he puts down. Mk3 guys are to busy replacing head gaskets, rewiring or deleting their TEMS or trying to find Kaminari body kits to cover the rust to do anything relevant or interesting.

[nate89]

Wow dude...It would suck to be in a real conversation with you. Everybody would be talking and the subject might change a few times, then all the sudden you turn to each person and make a comment on something they said a while ago. If I where there I don't know if I would be annoyed or laughing my ass off lol!

[Dark]

Originally Posted by nate89

Wow dude...It would suck to be in a real conversation with you. Everybody would be talking and the subject might change a few times, then all the sudden you turn to each person and make a comment on something they said a while ago. If I where there I don't know if I would be annoyed or laughing my ass off lol!

This! 110% agree.

Forgot to add some laughing

[Dimman]

DanKR: There were 2 cars with Lambo doors at that meet. That (the only) Scion, and a chromed-out Eclipse Spyder.

OneDay: Take this challenge to see where I was going with my point: Are AWD, turbo H4 Subarus available from the Subaru dealer? Yes or no? Now how about are RWD, OHV V8 Scions available from the Scion dealer? Yes or no? Take it a bit further... Can you buy an OHV V8 in ANY current Toyota product? No? Thank you.

I also don't see how your missing the point of the SW20 MR-2. They re-worked the suspension mid-model due to people wrecking. So yes in fact they did dumb-down a performance car due to concerns about litigation. Again, thank you.

As for picking on my car... oh boy. I'll pass on this bait. If you don't know the Mk3s, you don't know...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ademantia

That's irrelevant because the AWD, turbo H4 Subarus sold at a dealership are still built differently than the ones that are Rallied. Just like a RWD, OHV V8 Scion, you're not buying what you see in racing events.

The Subaru that is rallied starts with a chassis and powertrain that can be bought from the dealer. The Scion does not.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by oneday

It sucks that you had a bad instructor, there are stupid/ignorant people everywhere...it's be like saying, "I read something untrue on the internet, therefore all of the internet is wrong."

Conversely even if you are a better driver than me (I'll assume this is true) it is irrelevant to your arguments.

Now let's work on the following more constructively...

Originally Posted by oneday

But it's not like Toyota is not doing any advancement of tech. And the money spent on marketing is making Toyota as a whole, more profitable. If Scion were not giving Toyota a substantial ROI, the brand would be axed with a swiftness.

First let's remember what Toyota and every car company out there is about. Making money.

Given Toyota's return on investment, I can't say. The horrible expansion into Canada could be interpreted two ways. One, Scion is kicking ass and taking names, so now a proven system, onward into Canada, then the world. The other could be that it's not moving the volume expected and instead of just axing the whole thing and wasting a ridiculous amount of their investment, they are trying to stem declining sales by expanding into new markets.

Now allow me to elaborate on the marketing vs engineering profitability I touched on. My fear (which may seem paranoid now but who knows...) is if this marketing-driven experiment succeeds it will show companies that they don't need to invest as much in engineering. The technical side will then only need to meet the status quo and marketing will take it from there. It will attempt to erode the public's desire for real (way more expensive to develop) performance vehicles for more and more of the Toyota transport appliances, simply dressed up like a silhouette-type racing performance car.

The Japanese big 3's decisions to create separate brands to go upmarket makes sense. But Toyota's decision to create Scion scares me.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The Japanese big 3's decisions to create separate brands to go upmarket makes sense. But Toyota's decision to create Scion scares me.

They want to create failure like GM did with their 8 brands, which only 4 survived under it.

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Conversely even if you are a better driver than me (I'll assume this is true) it is irrelevant to your arguments.

Now let's work on the following more constructively...



First let's remember what Toyota and every car company out there is about. Making money.

Given Toyota's return on investment, I can't say. The horrible expansion into Canada could be interpreted two ways. One, Scion is kicking ass and taking names, so now a proven system, onward into Canada, then the world. The other could be that it's not moving the volume expected and instead of just axing the whole thing and wasting a ridiculous amount of their investment, they are trying to stem declining sales by expanding into new markets.

Now allow me to elaborate on the marketing vs engineering profitability I touched on. My fear (which may seem paranoid now but who knows...) is if this marketing-driven experiment succeeds it will show companies that they don't need to invest as much in engineering. The technical side will then only need to meet the status quo and marketing will take it from there. It will attempt to erode the public's desire for real (way more expensive to develop) performance vehicles for more and more of the Toyota transport appliances, simply dressed up like a silhouette-type racing performance car.

The Japanese big 3's decisions to create separate brands to go upmarket makes sense. But Toyota's decision to create Scion scares me.

that is true i think, why on earth would they bring out the xB (called toyota ruckus) to australia now after it has been out forever

also oneday, i did say i met a few of you people, that wasnt the ONLY time or the ONLY instructor that thought he knew everything there is to know about cars.. like i said if schumacher told me something other than what is related to driving technique i wouldnt care, if one of his pit crew told me thats a different story.. they build the cars and design them, not the driver

[DantKR]

Originally Posted by Dimman

DanKR: There were 2 cars with Lambo doors at that meet. That (the only) Scion, and a chromed-out Eclipse Spyder.

Basing everything on a single meet is silly.

Firebird:



BMW 3 series:



Lol focus....:


Ugh... poor GTR....:

[70NYD]

and yet....

LOL