BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[brzaapi]

Congrats sir. They really are great cars. Try to track it at least once. The real beauty in these cars, cant fully be appreciated till they are in that (their) element.


Wife still bust my balls every track day that we don't have our cayman anymore.

[Coaster]

Anyone been in a 981?
Thoughts on suspension and gearing?

Hope to own one someday...

[strmshadow84]

I have a 981 S, haven't tracked the car at all. The suspension feels nice and tight not really any body roll that I can feel (not a pro). I feel that the gearing is too long though, the only thing that I really dislike about the car. 1st and 2nd gear feels just way too long and I feel that 6th gear could be longer (for better mpg on highway).

[Gaiakai]

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

I have a 981 S, haven't tracked the car at all. The suspension feels nice and tight not really any body roll that I can feel (not a pro). I feel that the gearing is too long though, the only thing that I really dislike about the car. 1st and 2nd gear feels just way too long and I feel that 6th gear could be longer (for better mpg on highway).

What do you think of the shifter feel compared to the 86 twins? My 987 feels very vague compared to the very quick and precise shifter from the BRZ.

[strmshadow84]

Originally Posted by Gaiakai

What do you think of the shifter feel compared to the 86 twins? My 987 feels very vague compared to the very quick and precise shifter from the BRZ.

I feel the same, the shifter doesn't have the as precise of a feel as my BRZ did, I guess since it's a remote shifter *shrug*

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Centrifugal blowers are quite peaky as they build boost with rpm. Vortech supercharged S2000 is peakier than stock:

That's one of the most linear graphs I've ever seen. "Peaky" and, "stock S2000" don't even belong in the same sentence.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That's one of the most linear graphs I've ever seen. "Peaky" and, "stock S2000" don't even belong in the same sentence.

Linear doesn't mean "not peaky". See how power builds to a *PEAK* right below redline? It's peaky. Which is fine, as it has fantastic close-ratio 6-speed gearbox which makes it a joy to keep in the relatively narrow powerband.

Any N.A. engine that makes a respectable amount of power per displacement and a broad flat torque curve is necessarily going to be somewhat "peaky" in terms of power curve.

The centrifugally blown is objectively peakier. If we define the powerband as the rpm range where the engine makes at least 85% of peak power, the centrifugally supercharged engine makes that from 7500 to 8900rpm, 16% of the rev range. The N.A. one makes at least 85% of peak power from 6800 to 8900, 24% of the rev range.

The POINT I was making 2 years ago was that centrifugal blowers don't reduce peakiness, but rather exaggerate it. The dyno chart posted bears this out.

Turbo engine making the same power would be a lot less peaky with a much broader powerband. Which just means that torque peaks earlier and then falls off with rpm.

Personally, I *love* my F20C's power delivery. Only thing I would change would be to go to the bigger cam lobes a lot earlier to eliminate the goofy/gimmicky "kick" at 6000rpm. Crossover should happen at the rpm where the power/torque is the same on either set of lobes.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Gaiakai

@WolfpackS2k I have to thank you for this post. I've read it over multiple times and ultimately helped in my decision to get a 987 instead of supercharging my BRZ. Your impressions and breakdown are spot on sir



Obligatory whoring of my new (to me) car, with a Boxster parking buddy I found at work:

Congrats on the new car! I'm very happy to have been able to help you with your decision.

Originally Posted by Coaster

Anyone been in a 981?
Thoughts on suspension and gearing?

Hope to own one someday...

The 981 is a pretty great car, but if you drive one back to back with a 987 it exposes how numb the steering of the 981 is. 987 has hydraulic PS, the 981 EPS. It's quite noticeable.

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

I have a 981 S, haven't tracked the car at all. The suspension feels nice and tight not really any body roll that I can feel (not a pro). I feel that the gearing is too long though, the only thing that I really dislike about the car. 1st and 2nd gear feels just way too long and I feel that 6th gear could be longer (for better mpg on highway).

I agree with your sentiments on the gearing. First 3 gears are too tall and 6th is too short! What were they thinking???

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Linear doesn't mean "not peaky". See how power builds to a *PEAK* right below redline? It's peaky. Which is fine, as it has fantastic close-ratio 6-speed gearbox which makes it a joy to keep in the relatively narrow powerband.

Any N.A. engine that makes a respectable amount of power per displacement and a broad flat torque curve is necessarily going to be somewhat "peaky" in terms of power curve.

The centrifugally blown is objectively peakier. If we define the powerband as the rpm range where the engine makes at least 85% of peak power, the centrifugally supercharged engine makes that from 7500 to 8900rpm, 16% of the rev range. The N.A. one makes at least 85% of peak power from 6800 to 8900, 24% of the rev range.

The POINT I was making 2 years ago was that centrifugal blowers don't reduce peakiness, but rather exaggerate it. The dyno chart posted bears this out.

Turbo engine making the same power would be a lot less peaky with a much broader powerband. Which just means that torque peaks earlier and then falls off with rpm.

Personally, I *love* my F20C's power delivery. Only thing I would change would be to go to the bigger cam lobes a lot earlier to eliminate the goofy/gimmicky "kick" at 6000rpm. Crossover should happen at the rpm where the power/torque is the same on either set of lobes.

Linear means not peaky.
Peaky.


Linear.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That's one of the most linear graphs I've ever seen. "Peaky" and, "stock S2000" don't even belong in the same sentence.

look at the torque curve. torque is hp/rpm, so you see the stock tq curve is basically completely flat, with the little VTEC YO! bump to the second cams. The sc'd torque curve you see is slightly up sloped at the end, which means it is peaky. maybe mildly peaky, but still not linear. contrast that to the roots type like below, where you make peak torque low.

[Tokay444]

That's not peaky.

Originally Posted by totopo

look at the torque curve. torque is hp/rpm, so you see the stock tq curve is basically completely flat, with the little VTEC YO! bump to the second cams. The sc'd torque curve you see is slightly up sloped at the end, which means it is peaky. maybe mildly peaky, but still not linear. contrast that to the roots type like below, where you make peak torque low.

What roots type below? Those are 3 N/A motors.
And hp is a product of torque. Not the other way around.
(RPM*torque)/5252=HP.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That's not peaky.


What roots type below? Those are 3 N/A motors.
And hp is a product of torque. Not the other way around.
(RPM*torque)/5252=HP.

ops. i don't know my muscle cars well, shoulda looked more carefully, my bad

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Linear doesn't mean "not peaky". See how power builds to a *PEAK* right below redline? It's peaky. Which is fine, as it has fantastic close-ratio 6-speed gearbox which makes it a joy to keep in the relatively narrow powerband.

Any N.A. engine that makes a respectable amount of power per displacement and a broad flat torque curve is necessarily going to be somewhat "peaky" in terms of power curve.

The centrifugally blown is objectively peakier. If we define the powerband as the rpm range where the engine makes at least 85% of peak power, the centrifugally supercharged engine makes that from 7500 to 8900rpm, 16% of the rev range. The N.A. one makes at least 85% of peak power from 6800 to 8900, 24% of the rev range.

The POINT I was making 2 years ago was that centrifugal blowers don't reduce peakiness, but rather exaggerate it. The dyno chart posted bears this out.

Turbo engine making the same power would be a lot less peaky with a much broader powerband. Which just means that torque peaks earlier and then falls off with rpm.

Personally, I *love* my F20C's power delivery. Only thing I would change would be to go to the bigger cam lobes a lot earlier to eliminate the goofy/gimmicky "kick" at 6000rpm. Crossover should happen at the rpm where the power/torque is the same on either set of lobes.

Sounds like you need a Kpro.

Engagement at sub 4500 with a test pipe is common once you're tuned.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Linear means not peaky.
Peaky.

Linear means "straight". You can have an upward slope, and still be linear.