Estimated HP gains - bolt on mods and reflash?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

Well condsidering my rods are VAR anyway, that wouldn't be a cost increase. I am vaguely familiar with 4340M but if I recall it actually doesn't contain any elements different from 4340 but lacks a few that 4340 has. I believe it has a higher molydenum percentage as well. So, I'd guess a harder material = more machine cost.

Sorry, I don't really know your answer off the cuff. I guess I'm off to see what I can find on it's properties versus 4340 and 300M. Where I imagine it will fall in cost. But if that's the issue, the $160 difference between 4340 and 300M, I don't think there will be market there...from a part making perspective.

4340M=300M same material. 4340M and 4340 have similar make up but are different enough. M has less sulfur, and some vanadium (off the top of my head) plus others, different % of the stuff that is the same.

[dbagdbag]

i wish i knew as much as some of you do, i feel like an idiot reading the last few pages.


hopefully this will be a good car for me to learn with, I want to go beyond my intake and exhaust days when I thought I knew a lot about cars.


carry on.

[Homemade WRX]

^^^no worries, I do enjoy sharing what I know about engines, kinematics, etc...you'll see many such thread on NASIOC where I try to take an engineering view and put them into Layman's terms...though I often screw those up too

I plan to do the same here to clarify what I, and others, are rambling about. It's all part of explaining why I make the changes or decisions that I do

[serialk11r]

Hey uh, typically for higher rpm people switch the valve springs right? But a lighter valve instead would reduce float with less friction...are titanium valves very cost prohibitive? Seems strange, since valves are relatively small. What is the lightest type of valve? Hollow stem titanium?

[Homemade WRX]

Ti valves are VERY expensive and have a short life. The price has scared even my most loaded customers

This has come about as I've seemed to reach the limit of off the shelf valve springs. They are now a consumable with standard stainless and inconel valves. I'm working with a few suppliers with this so that I can keep pushing the package towards 11k.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

Ti valves ... have a short life.

They don't seem to have any problems in OEM motorcycle applications. I'm curious what issues you've run into that limit their longevity. Or is it just a matter of heat retention in turbocharged applications?

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

I'm working with a few suppliers with this so that I can keep pushing the package towards 11k.

11k RPM or 11k $ ?

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by old greg

They don't seem to have any problems in OEM motorcycle applications. I'm curious what issues you've run into that limit their longevity. Or is it just a matter of heat retention in turbocharged applications?

Larger valve size and RPM. The heat will obviously be a factor as the material will soften especially as titanium has poor thermal conductivity. Galling and necking becomes an issue from my 'no hands on' understanding. You need soft seats, like cast iron or beryllium copper.

Coatings and alloys have come a long way from where they first started. Del-West and Xceldyne are two of your larger suppliers if you're looking to spend about $250 per valve. Then don't forget to by the correct guides and seats. Then get your coatings done and have the machining done.

From my understanding, Gibbs racing has in fact gone away from them in Super Speedway engines.

From what I know of it, the failure of a ti valve is usually in the stem. Now you can see the hi-end they're are friction welding various metals together. To achieve a stem portion that isn't so suscuptable to galling and can better handle the load (also you want good thermal conductivity too) and then a low density head material that can take the heat from combustion. Oh and not to forget a hardened tip too.

Originally Posted by Levi

11k RPM or 11k $ ?

11k RPM

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

11k RPM

If you'll be able to make the engine rev till 11K RPM I'll take buy it ofr 11K €!

[serialk11r]

DANG okay that is expensive. How about hollow stem stainless? 20% weight reduction is like...10% more revs

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by Levi

If you'll be able to make the engine rev till 11K RPM I'll take buy it ofr 11K €!

Just a tip, my international custers, largely Kiwis and Aussies, watch the exchange rate as a time to buy rebuild components or even when to finally make a purchase. When you're talking thousands on an shortblock or engine, every little bit helps.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

DANG okay that is expensive. How about hollow stem stainless? 20% weight reduction is like...10% more revs

I'll see what it looks like. I really need to spend time with the head on flow bench to see if large valves are even necessary and to see what flow these heads can actually support. Lighter is better regardless but I've been fine sending EJ's to 9K+ with OTS springs.
Just because the bottom end can take 10k doesn't mean the head will support the power

I'll be working with a supplier on some ovate wire, beehive springs for the FA engine. The cam stock is going to be pricey part. Speaking of which, I've seen people comment on hear that the car was coming with AVLS, which I can't find anything supporting this. I'm fairly sure it is simply a dual AVCS head.

Regardless, I am VERY anxious to get my hands on the FA platform!! I'm thinking 2.4L without the crazy high rev's will be the ticket. You know, something mild like 8500...but really I'll put redlines where it's done making power.

[STInk]

Unfortunately these modern engines are made so much better than last decade, but based on reviews it is clear the motor runs out of breath up top. The exhaust is made to hit Federal noise targets, and that short-primary header is designed to make midrange torque; along with a cam that is designed to reduce emissions. I'd bet money (and I will!) that power can be extended upward, but it won't be cheap, and it won't be more than 10% tops.

Another angle to think about - Subaru designed a brand new engine... do you really think they gave us "all" of it right from the start? The Audi/VW 2.0t embarrassed the big brother V6, so the factory detuned it. Every couple years when they needed to refresh the line they turned up the HP wick via software. This Subaru motor will have some give, and they have some future bolt-ons in mind - you can bet on it.

Some no-brainer things we can do to increase power to the wheels: lighter pulleys, lighter flywheel, carbon driveshaft. Coat the inside of the exhaust manifold and midpipe area with Jethot 2000. I'm guessing gasket-matching will be near perfect from the factory. Forged wheels, lighter rotors and light tires will be a must! God this is going to be so fun!!!

[serialk11r]

Err run out of breath up top? But the torque peak is confirmed at 6600...that doesn't sound like midrange to me lol. The pictures released strongly suggest it is just a cam phasing system, no lift. FB20 has no lift, and the width of the engine is already pushing it.

@HomemadeWRX you say 2.4L? O_O Increasing bore? The engine already runs right up to the wheel wells as is.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

I'll see what it looks like. I really need to spend time with the head on flow bench to see if large valves are even necessary and to see what flow these heads can actually support. Lighter is better regardless but I've been fine sending EJ's to 9K+ with OTS springs.
Just because the bottom end can take 10k doesn't mean the head will support the power

I'll be working with a supplier on some ovate wire, beehive springs for the FA engine. The cam stock is going to be pricey part. Speaking of which, I've seen people comment on hear that the car was coming with AVLS, which I can't find anything supporting this. I'm fairly sure it is simply a dual AVCS head.

Regardless, I am VERY anxious to get my hands on the FA platform!! I'm thinking 2.4L without the crazy high rev's will be the ticket. You know, something mild like 8500...but really I'll put redlines where it's done making power.

Perfect, when you get the package done I'll be waiting.