Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The Cayman part came from Toyota (and Nissan) comparing their cars to it. But in Toyota's case people seem to equate 'handling benchmark' to 'FT86 will be a $20kish Cayman'. Not the same thing.

I agree with that. But handling benchmark does not equate to overall benchmark. Sure it might have similar handling to the Cayman on the track, but it won't have the similar power, build quality or interior features. Nor should it. The Cayman new costs double what the FT-86 will cost new. So when people start mentioning the 86 in the same sentence as other cars that cost double, it just gets annoying.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think this car can be reasonably compared to the MS3, GTI and SI, as well as the Miata For the overall buyer pool's definition of 'sporty compact' anyways. Magazines will compare the Civic SI to this thing, I'm pretty sure. Could be an interesting comparo. The Miata vs FT86 hardly needs to be mentioned...

Yeah it will be an interesting comparison for sure. Should have similar hp to the GTI but less torque. However it should weigh a good 300-400lbs less. Also not have issues that VW cars are known to be plagued with. Yet at the end of the day it is still a FWD car.

MS3 is a fun little car, but it is a 5 door hatch. Lots of hp and torque, but gotta fight that fwd torque issue. It is a fun sporty grocery getter but not a sports coupe.


The SI is interesting with the newer engine. However it is still a FWD car.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The Cayman part came from Toyota (and Nissan) comparing their cars to it. But in Toyota's case people seem to equate 'handling benchmark' to 'FT86 will be a $20kish Cayman'. Not the same thing.

I think this car can be reasonably compared to the MS3, GTI and SI, as well as the Miata For the overall buyer pool's definition of 'sporty compact' anyways. Magazines will compare the Civic SI to this thing, I'm pretty sure. Could be an interesting comparo. The Miata vs FT86 hardly needs to be mentioned...

But a lot of us won't. All those other cars have been out for a while, and most of us on here have all had a chance to go for them instead. But we haven't.

Yup on this we agree. The things this car is going to be compared with, and cross shopped with, are the sport compacts and hot hatches....and it needs to be competitive against them.

I certainly won't be comparing it to ZL-1s etc. That's just silly. The only thing said was if this car doesn't meet reasonable expectations, I'll look at other vehicles - as will others. Reasonable expectations: It's not slower than everything else that it's going to be compared against.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I certainly won't be comparing it to ZL-1s etc. That's just silly. The only thing said was if this car doesn't meet reasonable expectations, I'll look at other vehicles - as will others. Reasonable expectations: It's not slower than everything else that it's going to be compared against.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Are you real trying to consider a $23-25k Scion in the same sentence as a $50K Camaro ZL1? lol you crack me up.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Originally Posted by Maxim

Why not? I'm in the same position. I could go out and buy a Mustang Boss right now if I wanted (and could find one...). Or a new BMW 1 M-coupe. Or a 2 year old Porsche Cayman. Or any other sporty car that was 50k or less.

To try and cross shop the Scion against any of the cars quoted above is not fair. That was the point. Whether one can afford a car in a different segment than the Scion is great, but not fair for comparison.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Maxim

there is no reason to pay more for a RWD layout. The only reason it's not more common is because of packaging issues for small cars which need to maximize interior space. (RWD also takes a small hit in terms of fuel economy because of the one extra directional change the power has to take on it's way from the crank to the wheels)

When Mazda was initially developing the MX5, they also considered FF as it's cheaper to produce. They decided RWD was more important and went with FR (MR had also been on the plate).

Originally Posted by Maxim

I see it as using the same recipe as the RX-8, plain and simple. It needs to be better than that.

The RX8 is one of the most fun 4 seaters around, but it's a bit too heavy, its wheelbase is too long, and it gets horrible MPG. The Toyobaru will hopefully remedy all of that.

Originally Posted by Maxim

And the S2000 prices kept pace with inflation....meaning that back when it first came out, it was also overpriced. It'd be more like 40k today.

The S2000 was widely regarded as an exceptional value when it came out.

Originally Posted by Maxim

The general public does not care if it's rear wheel drive, because they are too stupid to tell the difference.

This car is not for the general public.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Wont pay extra for RWD. Certainly won't pay extra for lightness in a TINY car.

I will.

Originally Posted by Maxim

The Miata is a convertible, which adds cost, and also has no competition, so it is not competitively priced.

It faced the MRS, Solctice, and Sky. The latter two were sold at a loss and the MRS' impracticality prevented it from succeeding.

Originally Posted by Maxim

It will handily beat your car in torque. It'll probably be comparable, engine-wise, to the 9th gen Civic, which has a 2.5L with 170ft/lbs.

If it was significantly lighter, it would be pretty good still....but I sincerely doubt it will be more than 150lbs lighter.

If the Toyobaru has approx 150 ftlbs, just shy of 200 hp, and weighs 2700-2800 pounds, it ought to be very similar to the 2012 Civic Si (201 hp, 170 ftlbs, ~2870 pounds). Obviously this is speculative, but 0-60 in ~6.8 sec and the 1/4 mile in ~15.0 sec seems in the ballpark for that weight and output.

Originally Posted by Maxim

If ANYBODY can think of a reason why this car should have Si performance, and not MS3 or GTI performance, they should speak up.

Having driven all of those vehicles (many times in the case of the Si and GTI), I can honestly say I consider the Si and GTI to be about even. The GTI engine is the best (not as laggy as the MS3, but more oomph than the Si) but its shifter is only decent while the Si is actually quite good. The Si's chassis is more nimble and its driving dynamics are the best of the three. The MS3 engine was a let down (not responsive, didn't like to rev, and ran out of steam well before redline), but to be fair I haven't driven the 2nd gen MS3.

In any case, all three are soul-sucking FWD A-to-B cars compared to something like the MX5, RX8, or S2k.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Who said anything about a 2.5L turbo?

You wrote "If you want to knock the ball out of the park, offer it with a WRX engine, for WRX money". Here in the USA, the WRX gets a 2.5T. I see you're in Germany, but I was under the impression that the WRX has had a 2.5T over there since the GE chassis was introduced in 2008.

Originally Posted by Maxim

It's 2xx ft/lbs of torque are not that much.

That's 63% more engine torque than the Toyobaru's expected 150 ftlbs, which would mean needing beefier, heavier components and chassis.

Originally Posted by Maxim

I AVERAGE 27.9 mpg in the city in my GTI - and most of that is in the city.

That's anecdotal. Two of my friends' experiences with their GTIs were nothing like that.

Originally Posted by Maxim

People need to stop viewing RWD+Light as something that should cost extra. Neither are. This car is going to be a scion and it will not have a premium interior - it should AT LEAST be able to match a GTI in performance for the money.

I wouldn't buy a GTI or an Si because life is too short for understeer. I figure RWD adds a little cost, as does the Toyobaru being a lower volume car. If you don't value RWD and low weight, this car isn't for you (duh). To each his own.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Deslock

When Mazda was initially developing the MX5, they also considered FF as it's cheaper to produce. They decided RWD was more important and went with FR (MR had also been on the plate).


The RX8 is one of the most fun 4 seaters around, but it's a bit too heavy, its wheelbase is too long, and it gets horrible MPG. The Toyobaru will hopefully remedy all of that.


The S2000 was widely regarded as an exceptional value when it came out.


This car is not for the general public.

I will.


It faced the MRS, Solctice, and Sky. The latter two were sold at a loss and the MRS' impracticality prevented it from succeeding.


If the Toyobaru has approx 150 ftlbs, just shy of 200 hp, and weighs 2700-2800 pounds, it ought to be very similar to the 2012 Civic Si (201 hp, 170 ftlbs, ~2870 pounds). Obviously this is speculative, but 0-60 in ~6.8 sec and the 1/4 mile in ~15.0 sec seems in the ballpark for that weight and output.

Having driven all of those vehicles (many times in the case of the Si and GTI), I can honestly say I consider the Si and GTI to be about even. The GTI engine is the best (not as laggy as the MS3, but more oomph than the Si) but its shifter is only decent while the Si is actually quite good. The Si's chassis is more nimble and its driving dynamics are the best of the three. The MS3 engine was a let down (not responsive, didn't like to rev, and ran out of steam well before redline), but to be fair I haven't driven the 2nd gen MS3.

In any case, all three are soul-sucking FWD A-to-B cars compared to something like the MX5, RX8, or S2k.

You wrote "If you want to knock the ball out of the park, offer it with a WRX engine, for WRX money". Here in the USA, the WRX gets a 2.5T. I see you're in Germany, but I was under the impression that the WRX has had a 2.5T over there since the GE chassis was introduced in 2008.

That's 63% more engine torque than the Toyobaru's expected 150 ftlbs, which would mean needing beefier, heavier components and chassis.

That's anecdotal. Two of my friends' experiences with their GTIs were nothing like that.

I wouldn't buy a GTI or an Si because life is too short for understeer. I figure RWD adds a little cost, as does the Toyobaru being a lower volume car. If you don't value RWD and low weight, this car isn't for you (duh). To each his own.

Well, I disagree with you on almost everything but at least you're willing to intelligently discuss it, so you get a thumbs up.

Also: your friends must be horrible at driving stick because I don't drive like a grandma lol.

And the FT-86 doesn't need to be a low volume car unless Toyota fucks it up.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Maxim

The general public does not care if it's rear wheel drive, because they are too stupid to tell the difference.

And yeah, the S2000 was a rip off. I've driven them, they're great cars. Worth the 38k that Honda was asking near the end of their run? Fuck no. High 20's.

A s2000 should've only cost about 4-5k more than a miata. The only big difference is more power from a 2.0l and more weight.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

[/B]



A s2000 should've only cost about 4-5k more than a miata. The only big difference is more power from a 2.0l and more weight.

Agreed completely.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

[/B]



A s2000 should've only cost about 4-5k more than a miata. The only big difference is more power from a 2.0l and more weight.

100hp is a big difference. And remember that the S2K kicked the crap out of all the similar-purpose Germans that were far more expensive.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

100hp is a big difference. And remember that the S2K kicked the crap out of all the similar-purpose Germans that were far more expensive.

Yeah but those germans sucked....lol. And German cars are horribly overpriced....you think it's bad in the states, try coming here! Base price here on a 1M coupe is 67,000 EUROS. That's nearly 100,000 dollars. Tell them you're American, and the price drops to 43,000 dollars. For the same car. From the same dealership. I was instantly disgusted lol

I'm pretty much unwilling to buy a car from a brand that thinks it can charge more just because of it's name. I find it ridiculous.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Yeah but those germans sucked....lol. And German cars are horribly overpriced....you think it's bad in the states, try coming here! Base price here on a 1M coupe is 67,000 EUROS. That's nearly 100,000 dollars. Tell them you're American, and the price drops to 43,000 dollars. For the same car. From the same dealership. I was instantly disgusted lol

What I was getting at is that I think you guys are way too hard on the S2K. Honda's main failing with it was how long they kept it with minimal changes, beyond the 2.2L/rear suspension change.

Putting it in perspective of when the S2K was released, it was an absolutely epic car and not really over-priced. The fact that when it retired last year, it still wasn't an embarrassment to itself when compared to cars that were a decade newer, says something about how good it was.

We will be fortunate if the FT86 could do the same (but I'm not super-optimistic about that).

[SUB-FT86]

I thought the mx5 was rated at 167hp while the s2k was 240hp? Thats more like 73hp with a extra 250lbs of curb weight over the mx5.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I thought the mx5 was rated at 167hp while the s2k was 240hp? Thats more like 73hp with a extra 250lbs of curb weight over the mx5.

Second generations were 140 hp, released the same time as the S2K.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

A s2000 should've only cost about 4-5k more than a miata. The only big difference is more power from a 2.0l and more weight.

The S2k had not only the hand-built F20c, but also a *much* better chassis, electric power top, and 6MT. In addition, it was a lower volume car. Lastly, note that the S2k was more than the Miata 10AE by your $4-5k figure.

As far as it being pricey, if you look at most sports car from years ago and adjust for inflation, the costs seem ridiculous.

I maintain that for its time, and for what it was (a street legal race-car that provided Porsche and BMW roadster performance), the S2000 was reasonably priced.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Well, I disagree with you on almost everything but at least you're willing to intelligently discuss it, so you get a thumbs up.

Also: your friends must be horrible at driving stick because I don't drive like a grandma lol.

And the FT-86 doesn't need to be a low volume car unless Toyota fucks it up.

QFT.. I seriously thought he trolled the shit out of you. After the 1st 3 lines I facepalmed after that.. multiple times, i wasn't sure if he was serious or not. To respond to him properly would take too much effort. LOL

BTW Deslock, 08+ is GR not GE chassis and this car is for the general public. That's all I care to reply about.