Engine Swap ...

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by Marrk

@Leeky re Post #162: Huh? I thought the 200 hp figure was a settled issue (or as settled as a rumor could be)?

Power wise there still hasnt been any confirmation.

All the articles, rumours and press releases have said at least 200bhp and the concept in Gran Turismo 5 had 221bhp (so im told - i dont have a PS3 - Im an Xbox man myself).

But we're still waiting for an official power figure to be released by Toyota

Looking at history, Toyota has always followed Honda in the BHP Per Litre war.

Honda gave us the 1.6 VTEC B16 with 160bhp (180bhp in the EK9 Civic!) & Toyota gave us the 4AGE 20V with 160bhp (165bhp in later versions).

Honda gave us the 1.8 VTEC B18 with 180bhp (190bhp in the later versions) & Toyota gave us the 2ZZGE with 190bhp (200bhp in TRD-M Edition)

Lastly, Honda gave us the 2.0 I-VTEC K20/F20 with as much as 260bhp! but unfortunatly the best Toyota gave us was the Beams Black top 3SGE with 210bhp

So by my guessing, Toyota couldnt get any more power out of the nasp 3S design to match Honda and this also may contribute to their decision to go down the route of a boxer engine as the basis for the new car rather than all the eco-blocks they currently have.

My money is on the new engine being of power somewhere between the old Black Top Beam 3SGE and the Honda K20/F20. So around 230bhp.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by madfast

i think you have me wrong. my point was that if the FT keeps the weight down, 200hp is plenty. i said nothing about handling, and the absence of its mention in this discussion should not be construed that it isn't important. it's simply a different discussion.

as for the S2000, it was mentioned that they couldnt have done more to the engine being as it was so highly tuned from the factory. i in turn responded that they didnt have to do anything to the engine, but that they could have evolved the chassis and lower the weight.

the last point was for the turbo and engine swap crowd. besides turning the FT into a racecar, it would be much better to hope for a supercharger kit. that way you can get a modest power increase without the hassle of turboing a NA engine or the ridiculous hassle of an engine swap.

I agree with you. Except for that part about evolving the S2000's chassis. But I won't argue the point further here because there may not be that many people on an FT-86 forum that need to hear that debate. However, you and I can take it up over a beer, if you like.

:happy0180:

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Leeky

Power wise there still hasnt been any confirmation.

All the articles, rumours and press releases have said at least 200bhp and the concept in Gran Turismo 5 had 221bhp (so im told).

But we're still waiting for an official power figure to be released by Toyota

Well, if it comes in at 225-240 hp, all the better! At 240 hp and 2550 lbs and $20k, I'll buy two.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Leeky

My money is on the new engine being of power somewhere between the old Black Top Beam 3SGE and the Honda K20/F20. So around 230bhp.

that is ridiculously optimistic imo. its things like this that get people's hopes up and when it arrives with 190ish hp people will

i think for sure it will have more than 180 hp simply because it cant have less hp than the tC. the marketing dept just wouldnt allow their new halo car to have lower hp than a tC. people, the general populace, dont look at nor care about weight but they DO care about hp. so even if it comes with just 185 hp, it will still be more than the tC.

my personal inkling is in the 190-205 hp range. just enough. it beats the miata in hp and just about matches its weight and beats the civic Si in weight and just about matches in hp.

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by madfast

that is ridiculously optimistic imo. its things like this that get people's hopes up and when it arrives with 190ish hp people will

But you forget this new engine uses Direct Injection and Port Injection, which makes a huge difference to performance.

On the 2GRFSE (IS350 Engine) you get 305 hp! And this hasnt got headwork by Yamaha.

Combine the two and i would not be surprised to see an engine that matches the kind of bhp per litre that we've seen in the S2000's F20C.

Being a boxer engine; it is actually a more balanced rotating assembly than a straight 4, so if Toyota wanted to there is nothing stopping them from tuning this engine to 250/260bhp. But its very unlikely as they still need to get it through emissions laws.

[Marrk]

@madfast: I like your reasoning. But you have to admit that they could take all the marbles if they stretched it to 230-240 hp.

@Leeky: I'm no expert. Can they get that out of DI + PI? The LS350 is a 3.5L, don't forget.

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by Marrk

@madfast: I like your reasoning. But you have to admit that they could take all the marbles if they stretched it to 230-240 hp.

@Leeky: I'm no expert. Can they get that out of DI + PI? The LS350 is a 3.5L, don't forget.

Yep, so in the case of the IS350 its not quite 100bhp per litre - but it is an FE engine and not a GE engine - so this is a huge amount of power for a non performance engine.

But yes the technology is proven. We just need to wait and see what the wizards at Yamaha are able to build with this tech.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Leeky

But you forget this new engine uses Direct Injection and Port Injection, which makes a huge difference to performance.

On the 2GRFSE (IS350 Engine) you get 305 hp! And this hasnt got headwork by Yamaha.

Combine the two and i would not be surprised to see an engine that matches the kind of bhp per litre that we've seen in the S2000's F20C.

Being a boxer engine; it is actually a more balanced rotating assembly than a straight 4, so if Toyota wanted to there is nothing stopping them from tuning this engine to 250/260bhp. But its very unlikely as they still need to get it through emissions laws.

that's 87 hp/L on the 2GR-FSE. you're asking for 115 hp/L. for reference, the 458 gets 124 hp/L. think about it for a sec now...

and as for DI, it helps yes, but its NOT magic. in fact its more for emissions and mpg more than anything. at high rpm it runs DI only. at low-mid rpm it uses a mix of DI and PI because the combination is better than either one alone. and for cold start, they use a "weak stratified" charge where they initially use PI and then DI on the compression stroke. so the point is DI and PI isn't necessarily "better", from a performance standpoint, than DI alone.
it may be better from a tuning standpoint if we get full control of the ecu and the PI injectors can be upgraded and tuned. DI systems are notoriously hard to upgrade and fueling issues can come up. if we have PI in addition to DI, then perhaps, theoretically, we can "make up ground" with PI tuning when the DI cant be tuned any further.

Originally Posted by Marrk

@madfast: I like your reasoning. But you have to admit that they could take all the marbles if they stretched it to 230-240 hp

oh yes for sure. easily. but i wont happen for the expected price, not for the expected mpg (hollis said it would have "surprising" mpg at the scion FR-S reveal), etc. it's just too optimistic imo.

[Marrk]

Good point. They'd be giving away the store with 240 hp at $20k. (I'm not being sarcastic.)

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by madfast

that's 87 hp/L on the 2GR-FSE. you're asking for 115 hp/L. for reference, the 458 gets 124 hp/L. think about it for a sec now...

Honda managed its with the K20/F20.... So why cant Toyota?.... think about that for a second .......

Also Toyota got 560bhp from a 4.8 in the LFA - thats 116bhp/litre. And Yamaha helped build that.

Now the bigger the engine is the harder it is to get 100bhp/litre nasp. So if Toyota/Yamaha take some of the technology behind the LFA engine and apply it to the smaller engine of the FT86 (Which is highly likely that the tech would filter down) then i have total faith in Toyota coming up with an incredible engine here

[Marrk]

@Leeky: Mad isn't saying it can't be done. He's just pointing out that maybe it can't be done for $20k.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Leeky

Honda managed its with the K20/F20.... So why cant Toyota?.... think about that for a second .......

Also Toyota got 560bhp from a 4.8 in the LFA - thats 116bhp/litre. And Yamaha helped build that.

Now the bigger the engine is the harder it is to get 100bhp/litre nasp. So if Toyota/Yamaha take some of the technology behind the LFA engine and apply it to the smaller engine of the FT86 (Which is highly likely that the tech would filter down) then i have total faith in Toyota coming up with an incredible engine here

because things have changed since then. how many other 120 hp/L engine do you see in this segment? and there's a reason for that.

and about yamaha. i dont exactly drink their kool aid just yet. they dont possess some magic knowledge of cylinder heads that toyota doesnt. instead what i hear a lot about, especially in the LF-A, is acoustic tuning. making the LF-A sound great. surely yamaha knows a thing or two about head design and no doubt their experience helps. toyota/subaru may have just outsourced the head design/tuning to yamaha instead of doing it themselves. but its a fallacy imo to think that they are any more special than everyone else. and lets not forget the most significant part of the head is the new D4-S system which has nothing to do with yamaha and nothing to do with subaru for that matter. imo yamaha is there to help only and to tune the sound of the engine.

i too have total faith in toyota, in this project. BUT i draw the line at 200 hp or 100 hp/L. they CAN go further but they WONT and that point i think is being overlooked by many. just because you can doesnt mean you will or want to. this car WILL be cheap. just how much of the LF-A tech can you rub off and keep the price reasonable?

[Marrk]

If Yamaha was brought in just to tune for sound — for effects, in other words — then I wish these guys would stop wasting my money and do something substantive. I don't give an f. about sound. If they are marketing sound, then this isn't the car I think it is.

Okay, the above is clearly a "rant." Sorry.

[Random_Art]

I dunno... I care about sound. I would rather have a sexy growl like a VQ35 rather than a raspy fart that you generally get out of Honda engines.