Official Formula 1 thread

[Clipdat]

I wasn't in love with the track, but still a pretty enjoyable race. Not that exciting though.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Martinius

I don't know if any of you have been watching the developing Kubica storyline, but he may be back next season with Renault. That would be so awesome!

It's good to hear and I hope for the best, Kubica is a great driver.

One thing I never got though, there was a ton of hype for him that I never understood. Yes he got high praise from some of the teams he worked with (Renault talking him up right now saying if he was driving in 2012 in Raikkonen's place he would have been WDC ) but he never struck me as someone who'd surpass that '2nd tier' of drivers. You know the guys who are really really good, but just shy of the top spots. I'm thinking drivers like Rosberg, Massa, Button, even arguably Kimi, they have great days and with the right team became champions, even over excellent teammates, outperforming top tier drivers, but they can't punch above their weight as hard or consistently as Hamilton Alonso and Vettel can.

Who would he replace? I'm sure most people thought Hulk's career would have ended long ago but I bet Renault is supremely disappointed in Palmer's results.



Am I the only one who gets bored of the current F1 season about halfway through? It's like, ok look at the WCC standings, those probably won't change, maybe a driver will swing above (like Vettel may do to give Ferrari it's first championship since Kimi, who would have guessed that one 10 years ago?) but other than that a few teams will find good form, a few will drop off but we're pretty much locked in at this point.

Will Raikkonen retire? Ferrari play it safe with keeping him as a second driver? Alonso out at Mclaren? Will Mclaren have a competitive power unit next year and elevate a mid-field driver? Will my love for Grosjean be vindicated as I run out of underdog mid-fielders I like now that Bottas is successful? Will Ricciardo and Verstappen finally get some solid luck and equipment to make it at least a 3-horse race again? Could Perez get another shot at a top team via Ferrari? Or Grosjean?

I mean, aside from a Bottas upset, I don't care if it's Hamilton or Vettel putting another notch on their bedpost, I'm ready for 2018.

[alxtheoreo]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's good to hear and I hope for the best, Kubica is a great driver.

One thing I never got though, there was a ton of hype for him that I never understood. Yes he got high praise from some of the teams he worked with (Renault talking him up right now saying if he was driving in 2012 in Raikkonen's place he would have been WDC ) but he never struck me as someone who'd surpass that '2nd tier' of drivers. You know the guys who are really really good, but just shy of the top spots. I'm thinking drivers like Rosberg, Massa, Button, even arguably Kimi, they have great days and with the right team became champions, even over excellent teammates, outperforming top tier drivers, but they can't punch above their weight as hard or consistently as Hamilton Alonso and Vettel can.

Who would he replace? I'm sure most people thought Hulk's career would have ended long ago but I bet Renault is supremely disappointed in Palmer's results.



Am I the only one who gets bored of the current F1 season about halfway through? It's like, ok look at the WCC standings, those probably won't change, maybe a driver will swing above (like Vettel may do to give Ferrari it's first championship since Kimi, who would have guessed that one 10 years ago?) but other than that a few teams will find good form, a few will drop off but we're pretty much locked in at this point.

Will Raikkonen retire? Ferrari play it safe with keeping him as a second driver? Alonso out at Mclaren? Will Mclaren have a competitive power unit next year and elevate a mid-field driver? Will my love for Grosjean be vindicated as I run out of underdog mid-fielders I like now that Bottas is successful? Will Ricciardo and Verstappen finally get some solid luck and equipment to make it at least a 3-horse race again? Could Perez get another shot at a top team via Ferrari? Or Grosjean?

I mean, aside from a Bottas upset, I don't care if it's Hamilton or Vettel putting another notch on their bedpost, I'm ready for 2018.

If my memory serves me correctly, Kubica was always faster than his teammate, yet he wasn't in the best cars (BMW Sauber & Renault/Lotus). So he has top tier skills. He had a bunch of points finishes, several podiums & a lucky win in Canada 2008. He will most likely replace Palmer. Renault has nothing to lose if they start Kubica. :p

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by alxtheoreo

If my memory serves me correctly, Kubica was always faster than his teammate, yet he wasn't in the best cars (BMW Sauber & Renault/Lotus). So he has top tier skills.

If that's all it takes then Crashtor's career ended too early, Perez is destined for a WDC, and Grosjean will be replacing Raikkonen next year.

I watched those seasons, Kubica never stood out to me and his best season 2008 was overshadowed in my mind by the Hamilton/Massa/Raikkonen battle and Alonso massively outperforming the Renault he was stuck in.

Driver comparison sites don't really go back before 2010 but here's how he stacks up against Heidfeld, he decimated Petrov in 2010, but that's kind of obvious in hindsight.

Across their time together from 2006-2010, the results were 29-28 to Kubica in qualifying, 25-24 to Heidfeld in races, and 150-137 to Heidfeld in points.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014...river/#RKubica

To put it in perspective, Raikkonen only had to drive against Heidfeld for two years to distinguish himself enough to be picked up by McLaren. Kubica put in three and a half seasons against Heidfeld and the best drive he could get was Renault.

I'll agree they have nothing to lose replacing Palmer and that in an alternate universe the Pole could be a champion ('10 signing to Merc? rumors of a contract with Ferrari?) but I don't think he was ever a Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso level talent.

[strat61caster]

Fuck it, I'm putting money on Bottas WDC this year.

He's scored the most points since Monaco, only missed the podium 2x (not including engine failure which would have been an easy 3rd place) to Vettel's 3x off podium finishes and Hamilton's 4x. He's a win and a podium away from taking the WDC lead and not looking back.

The only driver putting in better work right now is Ricciardo who doesn't have the car to be a title challenger. Hamilton and Vettel have shaken each other up, and every race from here on out could break Bottas, but he's been doing this for years, he's no rookie.

[reni]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

punch above their weight as hard or consistently as Hamilton Alonso and Vettel can.

Originally Posted by alxtheoreo

If my memory serves me correctly, Kubica was always faster than his teammate

Nope.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/show...a-VS-Heidfeld&

I also never really got the hype for Kubica. He was at best a good midfield driver. Even if he comes back, it's highly unlikely he'll be particularly competitive... in a Renault, after being out of F1 for so long, with his arm still not 100%. Would still run rings around Palmer though lol

[strat61caster]

@reni
I know, Hamilton got rocked hard by Button for awhile, not mention Rosberg got his goat last year

I'm all seriousness though, Vettel won in a Toro Rosso before the Red Bull A-team could manage it, he can certainly move through the field better than most on the grid, and is almost never off pace in the rain (ooh Canada in the wet is why I love Button).

Yeah he's had a great car for many years, but that's a false pretenses imo, almost every championship F1 driver got there via good equipment, unless your name is Fangio, nobody did it on sheer talent and hard work alone.

[reni]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

@reni
I know, Hamilton got rocked hard by Button for awhile, not mention Rosberg got his goat last year

I'm all seriousness though, Vettel won in a Toro Rosso before the Red Bull A-team could manage it, he can certainly move through the field better than most on the grid, and is almost never off pace in the rain (ooh Canada in the wet is why I love Button).

Yeah he's had a great car for many years, but that's a false pretenses imo, almost every championship F1 driver got there via good equipment, unless your name is Fangio, nobody did it on sheer talent and hard work alone.

LOL

I'd put the current top drivers as: Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen

Vettel is probably somewhere towards the top of the second tier. His win at STR was about the same as Maldonado's and Kubica's - mainly due to luck, but did well to capitalize on the opportunity.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by reni

LOL

I'd put the current top drivers as: Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen

Vettel is probably somewhere towards the top of the second tier. His win at STR was about the same as Maldonado's and Kubica's - mainly due to luck, but did well to capitalize on the opportunity.

Yes if Vettel only had the STR win to back him up and never consistently outshone a teammate, i would agree, midfield driver. Nobody gets handed 4 championships, one sure, two, it happens, not 4 and then runner up twice. Out of 10 full time seasons he's been top three in points 7/10 years including this season so far. That's better than Hamilton let alone any "mid field driver" who's been in a Ferrari, Red Bull, or Merc even for a few years when they were strong, Webber, Massa, Raikkonen, WDC challengers who put in midfield performances in top tier equipment.

Shit I don't even particularly like much about Vettel, but Verstappen and Ricciardo have their work cut out for them if you think they'll be considered better drivers when the ink dries on the history books. It's been 15 years, do you remember who people thought were out driving Schumacher and he was just wining because the car was good? I don't.

If top equipment in the hands of a "midfield driver" can produce results like that don't you think Webber would have finished 2nd in the wdc at least once? Or was red bull so starved for talent they let a back marker driver sit in that seat instead of even hiring another midfielder to go take a resounding 1-2 sweep? Ricciardo wasn't ready in 2013 after trouncing Verne in 2012 qualifying and edging him out in race performance?

I won't sit here and argue Vettel is better than Hamilton or Alonso (because I don't think he is) but he is indisputably proven to be one of the top drivers of the past decade imo.

Interesting note, Ricciardo has never won a race after starting third or higher on the grid. All his wins happen when he starts fourth or further back.

If I had to pick drivers that are currently in top form I'd pick Bottas and Ricciardo, we'll see how the season shakes out, if Bottas didn't have an engine failure he'd have the most podiums this year ahead of Vettel and Hamilton. If Verstappen can convert the flashes of brilliance into results he'll climb the ranks quickly, but unfortunately results don't accommodate bad luck, he's gambled and pushed too hard and paid the price.

[Martinius]

Kubica never really got a fair shot with a good team to show what he can do. In 2008, he was leading the championship after his win in Canada, but BMW decided to stop development of the car in order to concentrate on 2009. We all know what happened next. I think he had a genuine shot then with Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen consistently dropping points. He also had a contract in place to join Alonso at Ferrari, but his accident changed all that. I really hope he comes back, apparently he was quicker than Hulk in the simulator. JUST GIVE HIM THE DRIVE ALREADY!

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by reni

LOL

I'd put the current top drivers as: Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen

Vettel is probably somewhere towards the top of the second tier. His win at STR was about the same as Maldonado's and Kubica's - mainly due to luck, but did well to capitalize on the opportunity.

You can't make a list like that without Vettel. My gut feeling is he's faster than Hamilton given the same equipment. He's leading the wdc in a slower car. Considering how fast Hamilton is, that by itself has to put Vettel in the list of top drivers.

Verstappen... depends on the day. I can see him being a top driver if he gets more consistent, but I think he has some maturing to do first.

[reni]

Why do you think Vettel is so desperate to keep Kimi? He's only had a competitive teammate for one year, Ricciardo, who absolutely destroyed him.

Just watch the racecraft from this season. The pass where he nearly took himself out on the grass trying to pass Bottas on worn tires when he had fresh tires. The last race where he couldn't get past Verstappen in a slower car. Or when he had a bad lockup and ruined his tire trying to defend from Bottas.

Vettel is very hard-working, intelligent, and crafty (his pass last year on the approach to the pit lane), and that somewhat compensates for, but can never truly replace the sheer natural ability the top drivers have.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by reni

Why do you think Vettel is so desperate to keep Kimi? He's only had a competitive teammate for one year, Ricciardo, who absolutely destroyed him.

You can level PRECISELY the same criticism at Alonso and Hamilton. Hell, Alonso has only had 1 competitive teammate his ENTIRE 16 year career and he nearly fell to pieces, Hamilton has been challenged a bit more by Button and Rosberg but he's the most vocal driver when he feels like he's being upstaged.

Edit: I just realized Hamilton is the only one of the three who's lost a championship to a teammate... Even Raikkonen and Button haven't been in that position

Like I said I think his pairing with Bottas may start breaking down near the end of the year if they both keep their current form. Hell Bottas is arguably stronger right now with a higher average start and finish and Hamilton is not a happy camper, how long before he starts blaming someone else?

Just watch the racecraft from this season. The pass where he nearly took himself out on the grass trying to pass Bottas on worn tires when he had fresh tires. The last race where he couldn't get past Verstappen in a slower car. Or when he had a bad lockup and ruined his tire trying to defend from Bottas.

I don't think anybody is saying he is a master passer, if that won races Ricciardo would be dominating this season. Racing is more than just one area of skill.

If you want to nitpick I'm sure we can find dozens of mistakes from Hamilton and Alonso. (Ok, maybe Hamilton more than Alonso)






As for that pass on Bottas, I wouldn't use that as a criticism of Vettel's skill, worn tires or not Merc has the best engine on the grid and running in dirty air is known to be difficult (otherwise DRS wouldn't exist). Yeah a different driver might have pulled off the pass when Bottas locked up, but Vettel's patience is the difference between a championship run and a string of DNF's, pass in the grass is a calculated risk, Hamilton did that not too long ago...


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AT4OfJMyS0"]Onboard: Vettel's brilliant move to pass Bottas during the Spanish GP 2017 - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCzkaX2DL7w"]Rosberg And Hamilton Collide | Spanish Grand Prix 2016 - YouTube[/ame]

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by reni

Why do you think Vettel is so desperate to keep Kimi? He's only had a competitive teammate for one year, Ricciardo, who absolutely destroyed him.

Just watch the racecraft from this season. The pass where he nearly took himself out on the grass trying to pass Bottas on worn tires when he had fresh tires. The last race where he couldn't get past Verstappen in a slower car. Or when he had a bad lockup and ruined his tire trying to defend from Bottas.

Vettel is very hard-working, intelligent, and crafty (his pass last year on the approach to the pit lane), and that somewhat compensates for, but can never truly replace the sheer natural ability the top drivers have.

Vettels weakness is not a lack of natural ability. He's got that more than pretty much everyone else IMO. His weakness is overconfidence in that ability. He will push harder than a competitor because he believes he is simply a better driver than them. He will try to defend an indefensible position for the same reason. Verstappen is very similar, and even more reckless.

On the other hand, someone like Ricciardo is at the top of list because they make smart decisions. This makes him a consistent performer. Bottas also seems to be in this category.

Depending on the team dynamic and the ability of the car, either personality can deliver very good results.