FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I just need someone to say, "Phil, I'm going all out NA, build me an engine."

Yes there would be significant gains with the head mods even NA. Probably NA would benefit more with some cam grinding also where the cams are pretty aggressive already for boosted applications.

If I knew a built NA engine would reliably make about 250whp it would be something I would definitely consider. My goal would be to build a reliable and good handling TT3/ST3 car to compete in NASA, so I would be looking for a weight to power ratio of somewhere around 10:0 to 9:0. I figure it wouldn't be too hard to get the car down to 2400-2500lbs with me (200lbs) in it. As it stands right now, my current idea for a project car with more NA power is an MR2 Spyder with a 2GR-FE swap.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Looking at a built FA20 block, this quickly becomes a very very expensive build. Can this be a sticky?

The FA20 builds are more expensive than an STi build and that is a little more expensive than an inline 4 build. The parts available for the FA are a little more expensive but in time a few more options may lower that a little, say $300. The increased expense is in the labor as there is just so much more cleaning, parts, and prep (multiple more hours). The head work is a little more expensive than the EJ work but you don't need to buy cams so that's good.

Now we perform our secret sauce oiling mods as part of the Pro Comp build and it doesn't add much to the cost when part of an engine build. That however still had pressure taper some above 8k RPM. The Perrin oil cooler or other is really a requirement on these engines due to how hot the oil gets. To go 9k rpm that oil accumulator is required if using the oem oil pump. We are happy to put an accumulator kit together for our clients or you can make one on your own for maybe $350.

I just think if someone will drop a big chunk on an engine build, they would benefit immensely from our failures and R&D, so you won't be getting a mystery, and then dropping $600 on an oiller cooler and $350 on an accumulator to ensure reliability is a drop in the bucket.

I just can't wipe the smile off my face blitzing this engine to 9k RPM and knowing we've made it 100% reliable to do so.

[kombatlion]

So my enguine Blow up too, after just 4 months of Turbo Power it broke the Shortblock at 10psi but I change tunes sometimes and I had a 12.9psi tune with 358whp and Methanol Kit.

Now I need to buy a new Block thats 2k, Rods, Pistons can anyone tell me what else?

I had a lot of fun, but if I knew that the enguine was going to blow up I go dont do it the same way... I will build the enguine first.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by kombatlion

So my enguine Blow up too, after just 4 months of Turbo Power it broke the Shortblock at 10psi but I change tunes sometimes and I had a 12.9psi tune with 358whp and Methanol Kit.

Now I need to buy a new Block thats 2k, Rods, Pistons can anyone tell me what else?

I had a lot of fun, but if I knew that the enguine was going to blow up I go dont do it the same way... I will build the enguine first.

You probably damaged heads, definitely the valves, and possibly the crank. Heads might be salvageable but I'm sure there are some nicks etc. We would really have to tear it apart.

The bottom line is that these engines are not easy to build "right" and it's doomed to fail again unless it's blueprinted correctly and modifications are made to the oiling system. Just stuffing stronger parts in, is not enough, and I know this first hand along with many.

Also we don't buy OEM shortblocks, we buy bare cases, cranks, etc so it will cost less and we don't waste money tossing out the pistons and rods. The cranks are pricey for the FA though.

It's the cost of going fast and being one of the first I guess

Give us a call or email and we would be happy to discuss.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

The FA20 builds are more expensive than an STi build and that is a little more expensive than an inline 4 build. The parts available for the FA are a little more expensive but in time a few more options may lower that a little, say $300. The increased expense is in the labor as there is just so much more cleaning, parts, and prep (multiple more hours). The head work is a little more expensive than the EJ work but you don't need to buy cams so that's good.

Now we perform our secret sauce oiling mods as part of the Pro Comp build and it doesn't add much to the cost when part of an engine build. That however still had pressure taper some above 8k RPM. The Perrin oil cooler or other is really a requirement on these engines due to how hot the oil gets. To go 9k rpm that oil accumulator is required if using the oem oil pump. We are happy to put an accumulator kit together for our clients or you can make one on your own for maybe $350.

I just think if someone will drop a big chunk on an engine build, they would benefit immensely from our failures and R&D, so you won't be getting a mystery, and then dropping $600 on an oiller cooler and $350 on an accumulator to ensure reliability is a drop in the bucket.

I just can't wipe the smile off my face blitzing this engine to 9k RPM and knowing we've made it 100% reliable to do so.

You might consider designing a system that incorporates both the cooler and accumulator. If designed well, it might reduce system pressure losses over having two separate systems. Hell, you might even include a remote mount filter using a more common and larger filter that might also reduce pressure losses.

[mike the snake]

I don't think I completely understand how the accumulator works.

From what I can gather, they release high pressure oil into the system when there's a loss of pressure.

I remember you describing how to fill the system, filling until you find the balance because there's a lot more oil now.

When there's a loss of pressure, the accumulator releases oil, which momentarily can overfill the engine, until pressure is regained and the balance of oil levels is regained.

Why doesn't the accumulator dump it's oil at idle when the pressure is lower? Is it plumbed into the intake for the oil pump so the pump never sees a lack of oil when the OEM pickup isn't sucking oil, or does it hold oil at peak pressure and push oil through the engine at the highest pressures?

I'm trying to visualize how it works, say when you are at 9k rpm and the pressure drops from 70-80 to 60-70, how does the accumulator help keep the pressure high?

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Why doesn't the accumulator dump it's oil at idle when the pressure is lower? Is it plumbed into the intake for the oil pump so the pump never sees a lack of oil when the OEM pickup isn't sucking oil, or does it hold oil at peak pressure and push oil through the engine at the highest pressures?

I'm trying to visualize how it works, say when you are at 9k rpm and the pressure drops from 70-80 to 60-70, how does the accumulator help keep the pressure high?

I have a feeling it's RPM sensitive, in which case it gauges the oil pressure off of the RPM, not dumping and overfilling the crankcase at idle.

[mike the snake]

I know our cars have like 120 pounds of oil pressure at cold idle, I figured the accumulator would fully charge from that, but still I don't know exactly how and when the accumulator does it's thang.

[cdrazic93]

Found this on NASIOC:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2252422

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Calum

You might consider designing a system that incorporates both the cooler and accumulator. If designed well, it might reduce system pressure losses over having two separate systems. Hell, you might even include a remote mount filter using a more common and larger filter that might also reduce pressure losses.

The accumulator does push and pull during normal operation so it does get circulation. The way we've designed the accumulator it feeds the main bearing directly since that is where the pressure drop will result in a damaged motor.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

I don't think I completely understand how the accumulator works.

From what I can gather, they release high pressure oil into the system when there's a loss of pressure.

I remember you describing how to fill the system, filling until you find the balance because there's a lot more oil now.

When there's a loss of pressure, the accumulator releases oil, which momentarily can overfill the engine, until pressure is regained and the balance of oil levels is regained.

Why doesn't the accumulator dump it's oil at idle when the pressure is lower? Is it plumbed into the intake for the oil pump so the pump never sees a lack of oil when the OEM pickup isn't sucking oil, or does it hold oil at peak pressure and push oil through the engine at the highest pressures?

I'm trying to visualize how it works, say when you are at 9k rpm and the pressure drops from 70-80 to 60-70, how does the accumulator help keep the pressure high?

An oil accumulator is not a perfect solution but it's well used, reliable, and affordable. If I was completely self serving in this endeavor I would have gone straight to a dry sump oiling system.

With that said it's working extremely well and I haven't really encountered much of a downside but I've designed the entire system very well, including the catch tank.

How it works in a nutshell. The accumulator is a pressurized container using air but only minimal pressure. At idle your oil pressure is higher than the pressure in the accumulator so some oil pushes into the canister and there is a certain amount of reserve oil. When cold or at higher RPM when oil pressure peaks the canister fills with oil at maximum oil pressure. When oil pressure drops below maximum, such as high RPM, the canister pushes oil back into the motor at your highest oil pressure just before the pressure drop.

What it does not do. It does not increase you peak oil pressure. It does not prevent the oil pickup from getting starved. If you have low oil pressure overall like the BRZ/FRS does this will not increase that.

What it does. It will hold your peak oil pressure longer. When your oil pickup is starved of oil it will feed high pressure oil back into the system.

What it's for with the Element Tuning Pro Comp Motor. This takes away the pressure drop I was seeing above 5k RPM even after the internal engine modifications we do and the Perrin Oil Cooler. Also for track days it will give you a few seconds of oil pickup starvation and still feed the main bearings and rod bearings high pressure oil.

Does it overfill your crankcase at idle? Yes

Is an overfull crankcase an issue at idle? No

How do I check my oil level then? You shut the valve at high pressure so the accumulator is the most full it will ever be. You then set your oil level to full with the engine off.

Does it overfill your crankcase at moderate to high RPM? NO, the accumulator is full at this point waiting for pressure to drop so it can push high pressure oil back into the bearings. So you won't have excess crankcase pressure from too much oil.

Does the crankcase overfill when I start to loose oil pressure? Yes but this is better than a spun bearing and trashed engine.

How do I solve the excessive oil in the crankcase when the accumulator is saving my ass? You have a big ass catch can.

Does this work as well as a dry sump? No. If you have a bucket full of money we'll make you a dry sump for 5x the cost.

So I've been driving my car with this setup now for awhile and I just decided to do things all wrong and I never shut the valve. So when I stop the engine, a couple quarts pushes into the crankcase. I haven't encountered any issues really. When I first start the engine cold I have 20-30 psi of pressure and then over a couple seconds it's up to 120+ psi. It just always has enough pressure.

So the bottom line is that the whole enchilada of oiling mods is "Phil" approved for people who do everything by the book and for the people who don't

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

I'm trying to visualize how it works, say when you are at 9k rpm and the pressure drops from 70-80 to 60-70, how does the accumulator help keep the pressure high?

Mike, I want to address this specifically as this is the main reason I'm running the accumulator.

So after Element Tuning did all the internal engine and oiling mods and added the Perrin Oil Cooler, after 8k RPM the oil pressure started dropping.

So up to say 7500 RPM I was holding a steady 75 psi with the other mods but before the accumulator. By adding the accumulator I'm now holding that 75 psi to 9k RPM where our motor is still pulling hard.

It does this because the accumulator was pressurized with about 3 quarts of oil to 75 psi at 7500 RPM. As pressure drops below this 75 psi the accumulator pushes back those few quarts at it's last highest pressure until it runs out.

So obviously not everyone is going to be able to make power to 9k rpm so the accumulator may not be required say if you get a built motor from us but you do not get our "Big Valve Heads" and power tapers past 7500 rpm. Now if you get our "Big Valve Heads" you cannot use 9k RPM without the accumulator (if you are pushing 400+ whp).

There are other benefits that may still warrant this product regardless of needing 9k rpm and I've outlined those.

[imom]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

The direct injection and port injection strategy is also different from OEM and really allows me the freedom to change very specific ratios of "port" to "direct" injection at any boost or RPM level.

Phil Grabow

Hi Phil,
Please excuse my ignorance as I'm not that knowledgeable about engines. I read a lot of post direct injection failures because these are just "slip on rubber seals" and a few folks posted how they tracked the cars and had engine failures because of the direct injection seals leaking from heat damage.

How are you able to over come that issue? That video sounds fantastic of you going through the gears... I am on the fence about keeping my BRZ coming from Z4M, this car is kinda gutless and handling the Z4M is slightly better. I had hoped for FI solution since I need to be CARB certified, but the direction injection stories I hear has stopped me from investing into such solution or just getting another car. I like the fact that the 86 cars are light.

Can you please give some insight into this issue with your engine build? Wishing you were over here in the west coast...The 86 car hasn't been a dream as I had hoped it would be... The lack of power and 2nd gear issue has limited some of my joys with this car. Would love to fix this issue versus getting a different car. Thanks!

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by imom

Hi Phil,
Please excuse my ignorance as I'm not that knowledgeable about engines. I read a lot of post direct injection failures because these are just "slip on rubber seals" and a few folks posted how they tracked the cars and had engine failures because of the direct injection seals leaking from heat damage.

How are you able to over come that issue? That video sounds fantastic of you going through the gears... I am on the fence about keeping my BRZ coming from Z4M, this car is kinda gutless and handling the Z4M is slightly better. I had hoped for FI solution since I need to be CARB certified, but the direction injection stories I hear has stopped me from investing into such solution or just getting another car. I like the fact that the 86 cars are light.

Can you please give some insight into this issue with your engine build? Wishing you were over here in the west coast...The 86 car hasn't been a dream as I had hoped it would be... The lack of power and 2nd gear issue has limited some of my joys with this car. Would love to fix this issue versus getting a different car. Thanks!

I'm not running a factory ecu, I'm running a Hydra EMS first off. The direct injection to port injection strategy differs from the factory ecu. Now while you could tune your Hydra to very closely mimic the factory strategy I've chosen to tune them more independently and I run as much fuel as I can through the DI injector to help keep it cool and to cool the combustion process. I then use the port injectors to suppliment the DI and to provide the overall fuel volume I need for more power. We also have DI pump control and in some areas I may be easier on the DI pump and other areas run it harder to get the extra DI flow I want.

Now there aren't a ton of exceptional tuners in the aftermarket that have experience more towards the calibration level. You have to know what you "need" vs putting it on the dyno with a set of mods and getting the AFR you want. It's not that simple on this engine and I suspect the factory ecu DI ratios are just followed and as larger injectors are used, it skews the actual pulse width through the DI since the larger injector's pulse width is smaller.

You also have to tune smart and over build your engine and parts. You learn this with road racing as your engine must be able to go wide open throttle for 15-20 minutes non-stop, and 8-10 sessions over a weekend. That's like 1000 dyno pulls or 1000, 12 second passes at the drag strip (in a weekend). Your forum "dyno queen" doesn't mean !!!!! on a race track. Now you build your car to be reliable while road racing and you've got one hell of a relaible street car!

This is what we do! People ship us their cars from coast to cost and we build full turn key engines and ecus packages to ship around the world. Never let a little distance stand in your way from making a huge financial mistake or for not turning the FRS/BRZ into the car you've always wanted it to be We've broken all the parts and spent all the money on R&D so you don't have to be the guinea pig. LOL!

Ok coming off my soap box now
Phil Grabow