CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[Turkish]

Originally Posted by was385

I'll be going into a purchase blind based on what I read on the internet so any and all first-hand experiences are very useful even if they're not exactly what I asked. Thanks.

I have my first autocross with my alignment fixed with my setup this Sunday. I went straight from OE to B8/Tarmac so I cannot make any comparisons to the yellows, but I can tell you the comparison from OE to B8/Tarmac. If you have not done so already, you will want to do some alignment mods to the front to add some negative camber or else you will have sever understeer as a result from the camber that gets added to the rear naturally by lowering the car.

[Fizz]

Hi guys, can you recommend a street pad which has the highest coefficient of friction, whilst still offering great cold bite.

For reference, this is going onto the rear brakes of a daily driven car, therefore cold bite is important since the rear pads will take longer to get up to proper working temp compared to fronts.

I can live with a little more dust and noise.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Fizz

Hi guys, can you recommend a street pad which has the highest coefficient of friction, whilst still offering great cold bite.

For reference, this is going onto the rear brakes of a daily driven car, therefore cold bite is important since the rear pads will take longer to get up to proper working temp compared to fronts.

I can live with a little more dust and noise.

Coefficient of friction is at maximum, so the number isn't really something you should be looking at.

A race pad will ALWAYS have more bite than a street pad, even at cold temps. While cold temps are not ideal for race pads, the race pad will still have more bite, and the bite will only increase as you get into their ideal temperature range.

For you, I'd recommend the Winmax W2.

[Fizz]

Thanks! You're a great asset to this forum!

Interesting that you mention a race pad has more cold bite than street pad. So if using the Winmax range as an example, would that mean the W4 (50-650C) will still have better cold initial response compared to the W2 (0-500)?

Not saying i'll get the W4....just wanted to understand that's what you meant?

[jvincent]

I have the W4 for the track and I kept them on for a week or two before/after. They have plenty of bite on the street.

I just took them off last night to save them for track duty. I'm going to have to remember to watch my braking distances today.

[Turkish]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Coefficient of friction is at maximum, so the number isn't really something you should be looking at.

A race pad will ALWAYS have more bite than a street pad, even at cold temps. While cold temps are not ideal for race pads, the race pad will still have more bite, and the bite will only increase as you get into their ideal temperature range.

For you, I'd recommend the Winmax W2.

@CSG Mike & @Racecomp Engineering

I am also starting to think about braking and soon I'll be needing new brake pads. Would these be what you would recommend for a brz that is mostly DD but also serves for AutoX? I am currently on stock wheels and rubber, although I may switch to Michelin Pilot SS 225 when I finally wear these out. Only suspension work I have done so far is the B8/Tarmac combo and added some negative camber to the front. I do not currently know a whole lot about the intricacies of break pads, but something that has a quick bite and as little dust as possible while not being overly harsh on the wallet is what I am ideally interested in. Cost and bite are my two most important factors so dust is the sacrificial lamb if needed. This seemed an opportune time to ask. Thanks in advance.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Turkish

@CSG Mike & @Racecomp Engineering

I am also starting to think about braking and soon I'll be needing new brake pads. Would these be what you would recommend for a brz that is mostly DD but also serves for AutoX? I am currently on stock wheels and rubber, although I may switch to Michelin Pilot SS 225 when I finally wear these out. Only suspension work I have done so far is the B8/Tarmac combo and added some negative camber to the front. I do not currently know a whole lot about the intricacies of break pads, but something that has a quick bite and as little dust as possible while not being overly harsh on the wallet is what I am ideally interested in. Cost and bite are my two most important factors so dust is the sacrificial lamb if needed. This seemed an opportune time to ask. Thanks in advance.

I have not tried the Winmax pads but feedback seems good.

Ferodo DS2500 has been one of the classic go-to pads for this kind of thing in the past.

- Andy

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Fizz

Thanks! You're a great asset to this forum!

Interesting that you mention a race pad has more cold bite than street pad. So if using the Winmax range as an example, would that mean the W4 (50-650C) will still have better cold initial response compared to the W2 (0-500)?

Not saying i'll get the W4....just wanted to understand that's what you meant?

Correct. That 50-650C is the ideal operating temp, but even at 0C, it will still have more bite than a street pad. Additionally, street pads ramp up in friction slowly with increased pedal pressure, while race pads ramp up very quickly. If you're under ideal operating temp, you have reduced mu and increased wear. Likewise, if you're over the ideal operating temp, you'll also have reduced mu and increased wear.

Granted, I'm in SoCal, but I drive with race pads year round. Cars with street pads feel like they just aren't stopping to me. It does get into freezing temps here in the desert/mountains quite frequently, and my car still stop.

1 stop will get you WELL over 50C. If you want to give it a try, drive up to about 30 mph, stop hard, and run out and put your hand near your brakes (don't actually touch it!). You'll feel the heat radiating just from that one 30mph-0mph stop.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Turkish

@CSG Mike & @Racecomp Engineering

I am also starting to think about braking and soon I'll be needing new brake pads. Would these be what you would recommend for a brz that is mostly DD but also serves for AutoX? I am currently on stock wheels and rubber, although I may switch to Michelin Pilot SS 225 when I finally wear these out. Only suspension work I have done so far is the B8/Tarmac combo and added some negative camber to the front. I do not currently know a whole lot about the intricacies of break pads, but something that has a quick bite and as little dust as possible while not being overly harsh on the wallet is what I am ideally interested in. Cost and bite are my two most important factors so dust is the sacrificial lamb if needed. This seemed an opportune time to ask. Thanks in advance.

DS2500 or Winmax W1. One thing I'd like to clear up is that the W1 is NOT an OE replacement pad; it's specs are actually very similar to the DS2500.

Keep in mind that neither are really suited for track duty.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

DS2500 or Winmax W1. One thing I'd like to clear up is that the W1 is NOT an OE replacement pad; it's specs are actually very similar to the DS2500.

Keep in mind that neither are really suited for track duty.

Interesting. I have no experience with them but simply by looking at the specs I assumed that the W3 or W4 was more comparable to the DS2500.

Anyway isn't the DS2500 mu something like 0.5? Seems rather high for a non-track pad. In comparison the W1 only rates around ~0.3 mu.

I'm starting to get the feeling that the mu ratings given out by all pad manufacturer's aren't really "standardized". Is that your real world experience as well?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Fizz

Interesting. I have no experience with them but simply by looking at the specs I assumed that the W3 or W4 was more comparable to the DS2500.

Anyway isn't the DS2500 mu something like 0.5? Seems rather high for a non-track pad. In comparison the W1 only rates around ~0.3 mu.

I'm starting to get the feeling that the mu ratings given out by all pad manufacturer's aren't really "standardized". Is that your real world experience as well?

The published Mu is the maximum the pad is capable of; it isn't what the pad will achieve under normal use.

In reality, unless you're running slicks, the tires will be your limitation. Unfortunately, there's no way to quantify bite and modulation characteristics into a simple number, so Mu is published.

The same goes for temperature ratings; there's no standard, and even within the same brand, there can be variance in how it is published.

For example, Project Mu HC+800, Club Racer, and 999 are all rated for 800C, but I can tell you that at 800C, the HC+800 drops off severely, and the Club Racer starts to wear quickly, while the 999 will shrug it off and keep going. Carbotech rates the XP10 to be 1500F+, which is roughly 800C, but the XP10 does not perform at the level of the Club Racer at 800C.

This is where our real world testing comes into play, and why we can subjectively recommend pads. It's also why we always ask what the pad is being used for, and what kind of tires are being used.

[unsurety]

Oh, the irony.

CSG and RCE do all this experimentation to save us money. Ultimately we reward their efforts with our money anyway

You guys are awesome. It's really informative reading your posts. Thank you.

[fooddude]

@CSG Mike:
Obviously, race pads aren't used on the street because of excess noise and dust... but, how long do race pads last you on the streets compared to hybrid/street/track pads and also pure street pads?

If race pads wear out a lot quicker..then why do you run them on the street? ...unless of course, the wear difference between race & street pads is minimal..?


or is it because you own a shop and have all the pads you can ever want, hehe


edit:
"I wanna be like Mike" ...so should I use Club Racers, XP10, 999, etc for the DD too?? haha

[juliog]

^ When you are at the track every weekend, the brake pad wear contributed by daily driving is insignificant. I think, unless you average less than one track day per month or have a really shitty commute with downhills and frequent braking, it's probably not be worth swapping your pads between events..