Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gtengr

Ignore the naming conventions. You say crash standards drive dimensional growth and I showed you a clear example of why that isn't necessarily true.

You showed the example of a new car design vs an old one. There is more than the name involved. I completely agree with you when saying that cars can be built to old dimensions. It is undeniable that they can do it with a new car. For a price. No doubt at all that they could have saved a couple of hundred pounds when they built the Twins but how many here would be looking at a $50K car?


What people are trying to do here is show how large cars have become over the same model of 20 or more years ago and that is where the safety related bloat comes in.

[Gunman]

It's a two fold issue. First, NHTSA,and others, have increased the safety regulations, that forced the weight up. Second, 'adding lightness' is expensive.

When I was working for Mosler, we built a 900kg (1984lbs) car, powered by an LSx. Before the side airbags were required, but it did have front air bags, and minimal interior amenities. It also had a full carbon tub, bare carbon interior, etc. It can be done, but it's expensive, and even more expensive and difficult with today's standards.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2002...-mt900-photon/

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You only think it is a good point because it supports your thoughts. It is not reality. I have explained the bloat several times.



The current MX 5 is indeed one of the smallest and lightest TWO SEAT cars in North America but at 2480 pounds it has still gained 320 pounds over the NA version's 2160. That is a very substantial weight gain over the decades which lines up with everything else.

I have said many times now that yes they COULD do it. If enough people would put their money where there mouth is and buy them they would do it. There just is not a large enough market for super light sports cars at the prices it would take to make them .

Your claims seem to be legit

I did a quick and dirty comparison

1990 Mazda Miata (2100 lb) 2018 Mazda Miata (2381 lb). That's about 280 lb gain for modern standards applied. Dimensions of both are very similar.

1990 Porsche 911 2 (3020 lb) 2020 Porsche 911 Carrera S (3487 lb). That's about 450 lb gain but you have to factor in the much larger dimensions in this case. So a rough adjustment for that would probably show the same numbers as the Miata case.

Also all this number crunching made me realize this weight gain issue isn't as bad as I perceived it to be.

Oh well, I guess it is what it is. I'll stick to that idea of stripping down my BRZ and call it a day.

Maybe when I'm very old and about to kick the bucket I'll go for a 911 GT3 and move to Germany where I can actually use that firepower. Those 911 GT3s are gorgeous, I saw one in real life and boy did my heart get stolen on the spot.

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You showed the example of a new car design vs an old one. There is more than the name involved. I completely agree with you when saying that cars can be built to old dimensions. It is undeniable that they can do it with a new car. For a price.

The 2018 M2 base MSRP is roughly the same as a 2001 M3 without accounting for inflation.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

What people are trying to do here is show how large cars have become over the same model of 20 or more years ago and that is where the safety related bloat comes in.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'll have to agree to disagree. While I agree safety bloat is a factor to some degree, I think it's less of driving force for growing the car's dimensions than the increased interior volume and ride comfort from a longer wheelbase.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Your claims seem to be legit

I did a quick and dirty comparison

1990 Mazda Miata (2100 lb) 2018 Mazda Miata (2381 lb). That's about 280 lb gain for modern standards applied. Dimensions of both are very similar.

1990 Porsche 911 2 (3020 lb) 2020 Porsche 911 Carrera S (3487 lb). That's about 450 lb gain but you have to factor in the much larger dimensions in this case. So a rough adjustment for that would probably show the same numbers as the Miata case.

Also all this number crunching made me realize this weight gain issue isn't as bad as I perceived it to be.

Oh well, I guess it is what it is. I'll stick to that idea of stripping down my BRZ and call it a day.

Maybe when I'm very old and about to kick the bucket I'll go for a 911 GT3 and move to Germany where I can actually use that firepower. Those 911 GT3s are gorgeous, I saw one in real life and boy did my heart get stolen on the spot.

Some history for you:
Before the 80s the average weight of cars was 4500lbs. When the fuel crisis happened the government made the first round of mileage requirements. The manufacturers did not have the engine tech to reduce it much back then so the easiest way to get mileage was to shrink the cars. By the end of the 80s the average weight was a little over 3,000lbs. But the cars were basic, had little crash resistance and were cramped. As the engine tech improved over the 90s the cars could get bigger again but still maintain fuel efficiency. So they started to grow. As they grew they got heavier which in turn made the new safety requirement get better which now made the cars even heavier. It was sort of an ongoing circle that the heavier they got the more safety was needed which made them heavier. We are currently at a point where engine and driveline efficiency are allowing vehicles the same weight (remember the 4500lb average?) as the pre mileage era to exist. This gives people the space they want, the required safety and all the goodies at a mileage rating that meets requirements.


Now the future:
The manufacturers are going to have to meet an average 54mpg target by 2025. If you take all the electric or hybrid cars out of the mix this is going to be a very difficult task. New engine tech may help but the only way they are likely to meet this requirement is to go back to making all cars smaller (the public is going to scream) or make them the same size and lighter. As I have said many times now the lighter is very possible but will cost everybody. So expect smaller and/or lighter cars in the next few years but don't be surprised when you see the price tag.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gtengr

The 2018 M2 base MSRP is roughly the same as a 2001 M3 without accounting for inflation.



I'll have to agree to disagree. While I agree improving safety is a factor, I think it's less of a factor than the increased interior volume and ride comfort that comes from growing the car's dimensions.

Dude! This is what I do for a living. It isn't a theory or such that I have come up with it is cold hard fact. I live this every day at work.


I think factoring in inflation is rather important when comparing prices over a 17 year period.

[WolfpackS2k]

Weight absolutely does matter.

It's great and all that all these sports cars that weigh 3500-4000 lb can put up amazing numbers...

But who's paying for the tires and brakes that can accomplish these feats? I can afford to buy an SS or GT, but I sure as hell can't afford to track one. Consumable expenses out the ass.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Sport Coupe.

I would buy a modern version of that tomorrow if available. That is one classy looking vehicle!

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The current MX 5 is indeed one of the smallest and lightest TWO SEAT cars in North America but at 2480 pounds it has still gained 320 pounds over the NA version's 2160.

Splitting hairs I know but the ND2 is 2339lbs. So 9% over 29 years. Percentage wise I am curious how that compares to a 964 vs 992.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Splitting hairs I know but the ND2 is 2339lbs. So 9% over 29 years. Percentage wise I am curious how that compares to a 964 vs 992.

Still close to that 10% to 15% increase as everything else then.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Still close to that 10% to 15% increase as everything else then.

I responded to you thinking it was the last post in the thread. I see the comparison was already made.

I own a 1st gen IS300 and what I always find odd is how Toyota managed to get it down to 3250lbs considering it has that monster iron block 2JZ in it. It doesn't lack sound deadening, it has airbags all over the place, it has a nice interior, RWD, minimal use of aluminium, ect, ect. Where did they manage to compensate for that 750lbs engine? Oh and it wasn't a high priced tag car either. Even in it's day it was light considering the engine.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I would buy a modern version of that tomorrow if available. That is one classy looking vehicle!

Then you would need to get a tommy gun, start talking out the side of your mouth, and end all of your sentences with "see?"

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Then you would need to get a tommy gun, start talking out the side of your mouth, and end all of your sentences with "see?"

Dadhawk

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I responded to you thinking it was the last post in the thread. I see the comparison was already made.

I own a 1st gen IS300 and what I always find odd is how Toyota managed to get it down to 3250lbs considering it has that monster iron block 2JZ in it. It doesn't lack sound deadening, it has airbags all over the place, it has a nice interior, RWD, minimal use of aluminium, ect, ect. Where did they manage to compensate for that 750lbs engine? Oh and it wasn't a high priced tag car either. Even in it's day it was light considering the engine.

See you are being realistic though. For that car 3,250 is a great number. So many guys would say it should be 2,500lbs and $5,000 cheaper with all that.