SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

Eh, I'd say you're 95% correct. I'd argue tire PRESSURES are worth checking and resetting between runs IMO.

I don't know - I seem to do better when I do nothing at all between runs. Resetting your pressures makes sense on the surface, but with tire temps changing you really don't have an identical setup from run to run anyway. For better drivers, sure, do whatever helps, but for a driver at my level, making any sort of changes I feel just has me chasing different setups and never learning how my actual driving input changes affect my run. ie, it takes me a couple runs to decide whether a change was good or bad, and by then the event is almost over. So I'll adjust my pressures if something feels way off, otherwise just drive. And I think that's good advice for a novice.

[7thgear]

while chasing dampers can be an exercise in insanity, religiously checking tire pressures should still be an important part of your race ritual


my R1Rs are very sensitive. it took me around 22-24 runs just to figure out their operating range.

Since then I make fine adjustments depending on course type and ambient temperature to maintain the tires in that ballpark area, and I can honestly say that it is paying off in terms of consistent feel and response levels.

[renfield90]

If you're new to the sport, don't switch to good rubber until you've got solid fundamentals.

Grippy tires will mask your mistakes, and even encourage bad habits to form because it "feels" fast. Ask me about the time my automatic Celica GT on all seasons beat a G35 on R comps by a second - he switched too early and developed bad habits. It set his driving progress back over a year.

If you're just out to have fun, sure - buy any tire you want. If you want to get good at the sport and pursue this semi-competitively, run those Prius tires to their death.

I had a Nationals practice day last weekend that I ran on dead Rivals - I still do this to myself to reinforce the fundamentals. Jeff Stuart (who will probably contend for the overall CS win this year) ran on bald RS-3s so I'm not alone in this.

[chkltcow]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Grippy tires will mask your mistakes, and even encourage bad habits to form because it "feels" fast. Ask me about the time my automatic Celica GT on all seasons beat a G35 on R comps by a second - he switched too early and developed bad habits. It set his driving progress back over a year.

Been there, done that. Beat a GTR while I was still on the OE Michelins on my FRS I'll second the notion about sticking to crappy tires until you get better. Learn to find the limit, go past it, and bring it back. When you're consistently driving at "the limit" of the tires... then go to some RS3s or Dunlop Z2s or Rivals or whatever.

I'll also second qoncept's notion of not chasing setup. I had a discussion with someone at VAC this weekend about why I like "Street" class cars. My first year, I had a Mini Cooper S in DS. It was 100% bone stock. When I was slow, it was my fault... not the car. I didn't worry about adjusting swaybars or shocks or whatever, I just kept my tires in a range where they wouldn't destroy themselves... and I drove the crap out of it. I just blamed myself, told myself I needed to improve... and worked on getting better. The problem to THAT is that I still don't really know how to adjust a car. I can give feedback on what it's doing.... pushy, loose, etc... but I don't know how to fix it. I just sort of drive around whatever the problem is.

One other thing that helped me.... drive ANYTHING you can get your hands on. Doesn't matter if it's your FRS/BRZ, a friend's Miata, a friend's WRX, or even a Ford Focus rental car. When you drive different things, you stop focusing on how to drive the car and learn to drive the course. You stop worrying about how the car is going to respond to any given situation, and you think first and foremost about just driving the racing line.

[marc615243]

Thanks for the advice everyone,

I was following the advice of a current autocrosser and instructor and was told a good set of tires will be a lot of help so I dropped the money on a set of ZIIs as well as some Kosei K1-TS 17x7 wheels, based on your recommendations I guess I will be running my stock tires until they are gone and then work with the ZIIs.

Just to save some money on alignments would getting the crash bots and shocks at the same time be an efficient method and best next step?

[chkltcow]

Originally Posted by marc615243

Thanks for the advice everyone,

I was following the advice of a current autocrosser and instructor and was told a good set of tires will be a lot of help so I dropped the money on a set of ZIIs as well as some Kosei K1-TS 17x7 wheels, based on your recommendations I guess I will be running my stock tires until they are gone and then work with the ZIIs.

Just to save some money on alignments would getting the crash bots and shocks at the same time be an efficient method and best next step?

I'm planning on doing several national tours and possibly nationals next year in my car in CS. I have zero intention on doing shocks until mine are worn to the point that they're actually hindering my handling.

Don't spend money on parts yet if you're just starting out. Spend money on seat time. Travel to every event you possibly can... anything within about 3 hours of you. Depending on where you are, you probably have options for every weekend between now and November. Seat time is the best money you can spend on mods because it's the only mod that follows you to every single car you get in.

[Kido1986]

Originally Posted by marc615243

Thanks for the advice everyone,

I was following the advice of a current autocrosser and instructor and was told a good set of tires will be a lot of help so I dropped the money on a set of ZIIs as well as some Kosei K1-TS 17x7 wheels, based on your recommendations I guess I will be running my stock tires until they are gone and then work with the ZIIs.

Just to save some money on alignments would getting the crash bots and shocks at the same time be an efficient method and best next step?

I separated them as the crashbolts and alignment will help tire wear and the shocks are not all that needed on this car unless you're running national level (stock ones are great). I'd suggest doing the bolts before mounting the Z2s to help them lack longer (Who gives a crap about the OEM tires IMO) and obviously alignment is needed.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

I separated them as the crashbolts and alignment will help tire wear and the shocks are not all that needed on this car unless you're running national level (stock ones are great).

Are dampers going to make that much of a difference? I used to only race cars that were eco-boxes so replacing the dampers was night and day, but on these cars, I don't understand why the dampers wouldn't be at the optimal spot from the factory?

I could see the argument that they are adjustable, but for everyone that argues the need for adjustment, there are equal numbers of people that think you should set the damping for the spring/mass combo and leave it there indefinitely.

I don't know, just looking for some conversation on it since I will be the guy at Nationals on the stock dampers, more due to money than setup philosophy.

[Kido1986]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Are dampers going to make that much of a difference? I used to only race cars that were eco-boxes so replacing the dampers was night and day, but on these cars, I don't understand why the dampers wouldn't be at the optimal spot from the factory?

I could see the argument that they are adjustable, but for everyone that argues the need for adjustment, there are equal numbers of people that think you should set the damping for the spring/mass combo and leave it there indefinitely.

I don't know, just looking for some conversation on it since I will be the guy at Nationals on the stock dampers, more due to money than setup philosophy.

Stock ARE fine on this car. Some people find them a little too damped for their driving style, some find it underdamped. It's all about your driving style. I believe 50% on the Konis is close to OEM, which is where my rears are, fronts are slightly stiffer. I was one of the first to get them just because I wanted to test them.

I'm sure they are more useful than stock on rough lots or rain days but on smooth, dry lots, the OEM are pretty stout.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

Stock ARE fine on this car. Some people find them a little too damped for their driving style, some find it underdamped. It's all about your driving style. I believe 50% on the Konis is close to OEM, which is where my rears are, fronts are slightly stiffer. I was one of the first to get them just because I wanted to test them.

I'm sure they are more useful than stock on rough lots or rain days but on smooth, dry lots, the OEM are pretty stout.

Makes sense. I wish I was a good/consistent enough driver to know that I want it more damped or less damped. I can do more understeer / more oversteer but that is about it.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Makes sense. I wish I was a good/consistent enough driver to know that I want it more damped or less damped. I can do more understeer / more oversteer but that is about it.

not really about driving ability


if someone put you in a severely underdampened car, then into a severely overdampened car, then into a perfectly balanced car, then you'll know forever the difference between the 3 states.

[xwd]

I used to be in the camp of driving on the stock tires until you learn things. Now I'm more in the Sam Strano camp of don't bother driving on crappy tires if you really want to get into the sport since it's so much different. The reality is you'll never drive on crappy tires again after driving on decent ones.

The stock shocks are definitely adequate to be very competitive.

I also check/change my tire pressures between runs. Our local courses are usually really heavy in either left or right turns, and one side usually gains a lot more than the other side, and you don't necessarily want that.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

not really about driving ability


if someone put you in a severely underdampened car, then into a severely overdampened car, then into a perfectly balanced car, then you'll know forever the difference between the 3 states.

Agreed, but the OEM dampers on the FR-S/BRZ are definitely not severely over or under damped.

Maybe I should have said that I am not a good enough driver to know if I think the overall car is slightly underdamped or slightly overdamped.

As for playing with the damping to make the car behave the way you want at corner entry or exit, I can definitely feel that. That however gets back into the realm of whether or not adjustibility is actually a good thing in dampers or if they should be set for a natural frequency.

[DylanFRS]

And I just want to clarify about my thoughts on dampers. I have not ordered dampers for my car yet because aside from the "that's what everyone else does", I haven't figured out how that would help me (and money :P ).

For the first 5 years I autocrossed, I had adjustable dampers that I played with constantly. And, at the time, I would have told you that I was a good enough driver to know what was faster.

Then for 2.5 years I drove a car with Koni's that someone else had adjusted to "optimal for the car" before I even bought the car and I left them there and, IMO, grew as a driver.

Now, in yet another car, I am not certain that I want to play around with damper adjustment, I am getting into the camp of "a perfect setting". I have met National champs from each camp so I am not convinced on which one is correct. But, after autocrossing for 9 years, I am convinced that I am not a good enough, or consistent enough, to know when I make a damper change for the better.

So, and here is why I would love further discussion on this, I don't know why I would be buying better dampers. The options are:

OEM dampers are underdamped (well, are they?)
OEM dampers are overdamped (well, are they?)
Adjustability is a good thing (well, is it?)
Just buy them because they are on the list of legal mods

I am not convinced on any of those options at the moment so I am struggling to just drop the money on a mod that at this point, I really don't understand.