Tracking with Forced Induction

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by rb6freak

PTuning turbo - about a good solid few feet away from the radiator, behind the engine, very low, in the transmission tunnel.

That's all, thanks =)

People always overlook the simplest answer: solid design, unforgiving of convenience/ease of manufacturing/cost

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rb6freak

That's where I do most of my testing after a tune change. I've hit that road probably 100 times in the past month or two. So, yeah, probably me :-)

p.s. I lost you with these acronyms - GPW, CRs

Gran Prix White Club Racer :p

I may have some better test roads for you... PM me.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Obviously all turbo kits are different in one way or another. Theres quite a bit of room to add a shield on ours in terms of distance in relation to the fans. I'm actually working on on a stainless one that will be cnc laser cut and press brake'd.

Theres also plenty of room to move this radiator forward quite a bit. That would require custom work and fabrication but i think anyone wanting to successfully track one of these cars turbocharged should already plan on thinking outside the box if needed. I view it as similar to tracking turbo honda's...Which at one point was thought of as almost impossible.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Pete156

I have been seriously thinking of buying my daughters '87 325is and following this plan. I think with 4-5K to work with I should be able put together a decent machine. It doesn't drive anything like my 86, though specs are comparable.
Can I afford to throw it away? Sure, why not.
Just hope I can take the heat on the crowded track.

I hear the popular thing to do up in the Pacific Northwest is to build a PRO3 car instead of a SpecE30. They allow a higher level of modification/price though. The biggest expense is going to be the roll cage, but a solid driving 325is can easily become a SpecE30 for 4-5k.

[mike the snake]

Originally Posted by Jesse@JDLAutodesign

Obviously all turbo kits are different in one way or another. Theres quite a bit of room to add a shield on ours in terms of distance in relation to the fans. I'm actually working on on a stainless one that will be cnc laser cut and press brake'd.

Theres also plenty of room to move this radiator forward quite a bit. That would require custom work and fabrication but i think anyone wanting to successfully track one of these cars turbocharged should already plan on thinking outside the box if needed. I view it as similar to tracking turbo honda's...Which at one point was thought of as almost impossible.

I moved my radiator forward, and I agree that for track duty that the radiator should be moved forward. Mandatory on front mounted turbos!

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I hear the popular thing to do up in the Pacific Northwest is to build a PRO3 car instead of a SpecE30. They allow a higher level of modification/price though. The biggest expense is going to be the roll cage, but a solid driving 325is can easily become a SpecE30 for 4-5k.

Pro3 is, in my opinion, one of the absolute best spec racing groups in the area. There are now over 75 built Pro3 cars in the area, and every german auto shop has experience with them now too. The league is even now still growing, with new teams popping up constantly.


Two comments on this thread-
regarding the BRZ with a good driver beating a GTR with a bad driver, after having rode in a pro3 car, with maybe 160-170 horsepower, during the C run group at our local BMW CCA group, I can tell you that the better driver wins every time against the better car. We were passing e92 M3s in the straightaways like they were standing freaking still, because the pro3 driver I was riding with knew how to keep his corner speeds and corner exit speeds up so high that he was stinkin 20-30mph faster on corner exit than the run group C drivers in their 400+ hp machines. It was one of the most enlightening experiences for me to see that first hand, and it made me pretty much stop investing in all power mods completely until I have a lot more track time. That 30 year old piece of junk e30 just CRAPPED all over these $60,000 machines like they were little tykes push cars. (That specific E30 hadn't been race refreshed in several years, either)


2nd comment-
Pro3 is freaking awesome. Free Pro3 calendars at all the repair shops within hundreds of miles, all of the drivers willing to give you the shirts off their back to get your car running to race against them, street class tires, so many more reasons.

[Dezoris]

I am sure if you actually took a poll on here who tracks their car you'd have a lot more SC owners chime in.

From what I have seen we have plenty of track miles logged on Vortech, Jackson and Innovate. Or at least we are the most active users.

The SC route is basically is as simple as adding a good oil cooler and radiator. I maxed out my Perrin oil cooler after a 50 minute session at 80F. Oil hit 265F, but running 30 minutes oil has stayed below 240F.

My UOA analysis and vortech oil has been perfect.

Point is most of us SC guys can give you plenty of info on what works and not. So much varied experience on here now its not a fan boy consortium of late.

I'd just say there are a few big variables, climate fluctuation, tuning and how much track vs. street you do. That is going to change how you set up the car.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Tainen

2nd comment-
Pro3 is freaking awesome. Free Pro3 calendars at all the repair shops within hundreds of miles, all of the drivers willing to give you the shirts off their back to get your car running to race against them, street class tires, so many more reasons.

I had to buy my PRO3 calanders. I bought them a couple years in a row, but then I bought a SpecE30 one last year that had my car on the cover. That is the same way in SpecE30. The guys will do whatever it takes to help you get your car back out there to race. Wreck it on Saturday and race it again on Sunday.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I am sure if you actually took a poll on here who tracks their car you'd have a lot more SC owners chime in.

From what I have seen we have plenty of track miles logged on Vortech, Jackson and Innovate. Or at least we are the most active users.

The SC route is basically is as simple as adding a good oil cooler and radiator. I maxed out my Perrin oil cooler after a 50 minute session at 80F. Oil hit 265F, but running 30 minutes oil has stayed below 240F.

My UOA analysis and vortech oil has been perfect.

Point is most of us SC guys can give you plenty of info on what works and not. So much varied experience on here now its not a fan boy consortium of late.

I'd just say there are a few big variables, climate fluctuation, tuning and how much track vs. street you do. That is going to change how you set up the car.

It is the same with Miata community. There are a lot more Supercharged Miatas that are being used for track than the Turbocharged ones.
I don't know about S2k owners but assume it would be the same.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Tainen

Pro3 is, in my opinion, one of the absolute best spec racing groups in the area. There are now over 75 built Pro3 cars in the area, and every german auto shop has experience with them now too. The league is even now still growing, with new teams popping up constantly.


Two comments on this thread-
regarding the BRZ with a good driver beating a GTR with a bad driver, after having rode in a pro3 car, with maybe 160-170 horsepower, during the C run group at our local BMW CCA group, I can tell you that the better driver wins every time against the better car. We were passing e92 M3s in the straightaways like they were standing freaking still, because the pro3 driver I was riding with knew how to keep his corner speeds and corner exit speeds up so high that he was stinkin 20-30mph faster on corner exit than the run group C drivers in their 400+ hp machines. It was one of the most enlightening experiences for me to see that first hand, and it made me pretty much stop investing in all power mods completely until I have a lot more track time. That 30 year old piece of junk e30 just CRAPPED all over these $60,000 machines like they were little tykes push cars. (That specific E30 hadn't been race refreshed in several years, either)


2nd comment-
Pro3 is freaking awesome. Free Pro3 calendars at all the repair shops within hundreds of miles, all of the drivers willing to give you the shirts off their back to get your car running to race against them, street class tires, so many more reasons.

Please don't get me wrong since my intent is not to misprize the old E30 cars or anything but I saw a couple PRO3 cars at PR before and wasn't astonished by their performance. I had my Corvette Grand Sport at that time so no surprise there. What are the official specs of those cars? It should be like 2600-2700lbs weight restricted (with driver) with stock hp (160-170 hp), if I am not mistaken. I think it all comes down to lbs/hp ratio, anything above 12 lbs per hp is considered slow (in this case it is like 15.6 lbs per hp) How is the body flex with those old cars? since chassis technology has come along a long way.

The point is, more than likely, the guy in the GT-R had absolutely no idea or previous track experience. Same apply to the other fast and expensive cars, many of the times the guys who track their expensive cars barely push them(or can push them) hard but what does this tell us? It won't change the fact that it's so much easier to go fast with those more expensive cars because they have a lot of technology built in to them. Take a look at the Z06 with Z07 package, or new Z28 their suspension technology along with their PTM modules are so advanced which ultimately help with a lot better lap times

I am also not so sure about the E92 M3s' ability to keep high corner speeds but there is no way that a 30 year old 3 series that can put 20-30 mph higher corner speed than a proper sports car such as Corvette which can be attained a lot less than $60k

Also another problem with old 4 door sedan/econobox cars is that they're not designed as a real performance car and the only advantage they might have is the weight savings (due to previous years poor chassis and safety regulations) and whatever you do to them it won't be a real sports car like Corvette, Porsche, Viper or even a Miata..

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Please don't get me wrong since my intent is not to misprize the old E30 cars or anything but I saw a couple PRO3 cars at PR before and wasn't astonished by their performance. I had my Corvette Grand Sport at that time so no surprise there. What are the official specs of those cars? It should be like 2600-2700lbs weight restricted (with driver) with stock hp (160-170 hp), if I am not mistaken. I think it all comes down to lbs/hp ratio, anything above 12 lbs per hp is considered slow (in this case it is like 15.6 lbs per hp) How is the body flex with those old cars? since chassis technology has come along a long way.

The point is, more than likely, the guy in the GT-R had absolutely no idea or previous track experience. Same apply to the other fast and expensive cars, many of the times the guys who track their expensive cars barely push them(or can push them) hard but what does this tell us? It won't change the fact that it's so much easier to go fast with those more expensive cars because they have a lot of technology built in to them. Take a look at the Z06 with Z07 package, or new Z28 their suspension technology along with their PTM modules are so advanced which ultimately help with a lot better lap times

I am also not so sure about the E92 M3s' ability to keep high corner speeds but there is no way that a 30 year old 3 series that can put 20-30 mph higher corner speed than a proper sports car such as Corvette which can be attained a lot less than $60k

Also another problem with old 4 door sedan/econobox cars is that they're not designed as a real performance car and the only advantage they might have is the weight savings (due to previous years poor chassis and safety regulations) and whatever you do to them it won't be a real sports car like Corvette, Porsche, Viper or even a Miata..

I think you missed the point completely. Nobody is saying that an E30 can compete with a Z06 or a new Z28. The fact is that a better driver in a DE session can pass many "faster" cars with scared or inexperienced drivers. The point was that the E30 can make you a better driver and can improve your ability on the track much more than forced induction can. The PRO3 and SpecE30 are spec racing series where the driver skill is the biggest factor in toping the podium. If you would rather win a DE trophy and utilize the computers and advanced traction management software in todays modern vehicle to pass every car in your session, then more power to you.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I think you missed the point completely. Nobody is saying that an E30 can compete with a Z06 or a new Z28. The fact is that a better driver in a DE session can pass many "faster" cars with scared or inexperienced drivers. The point was that the E30 can make you a better driver and can improve your ability on the track much more than forced induction can. The PRO3 and SpecE30 are spec racing series where the driver skill is the biggest factor in toping the podium. If you would rather win a DE trophy and utilize the computers and advanced traction management software in todays modern vehicle to pass every car in your session, then more power to you.

well..maybe you didn't specifically but someone did and I quoted in my previous post already

We were passing e92 M3s in the straightaways like they were standing freaking still, because the pro3 driver I was riding with knew how to keep his corner speeds and corner exit speeds up so high that he was stinkin 20-30mph faster on corner exit than the run group C drivers in their 400+ hp machines. It was one of the most enlightening experiences for me to see that first hand, and it made me pretty much stop investing in all power mods completely until I have a lot more track time. That 30 year old piece of junk e30 just CRAPPED all over these $60,000 machines like they were little tykes push cars.

I know exactly what your point is, I think most of us heard enough of these "underdog stories" , a guy with a lesser car can keep up or pass the guys with more advanced cars..... the driver factor is the single most important factor when it comes to better lap times yeah we get it but does that mean FI is not needed for an underpowered car such as BRZ? Can't you agree with the risks associated with driving a lesser car, in order to reach the high HP cars' lap times mainly because you have to drive very tense and at their ultimate limits all the times because your car is extremely weak (hp wise)? Same applies to all the momentum cars ( some can say "every car is a momentum car" and they might be right)

The point was that the E30 can make you a better driver and can improve your ability on the track much more than forced induction can.

no it can't because it's not designed to be a sports car to begin with, it's just 30 year old, 4 door "sporty" car from 80s ..not a Miata or Corvette or BRZ..if I were after a very light platform, good chassis and reliability I would get an NA body style Miata (and of course I would put a Kraftwerks SC kit on that soon after)


What I am trying to say is a sport car is a combination of many elements,
chassis, aero, handling, lbs/hp ratio ..etc and leaving one element out of the question and telling people "you don't need extra power 170hp is more than you ever need" is plain absurd and getting old, IMHO

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by glamcem

no it can't because it's not designed to be a sports car to begin with,

The point is you will learn much more (and learn quicker) about driving dynamics and driving at the limit with a miata/e30/stock brz than you will with a super powerful boosted brz or GTR. You still learn with the latter cars but it is just not the same.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

The point is you will learn much more (and learn quicker) about driving dynamics and driving at the limit with a miata/e30/stock brz than you will with a super powerful boosted brz or GTR. You still learn with the latter cars but it is just not the same.

of course if this is your first track experience and you're a very inexperienced driver but OP already mentioned he has previous experience with his car and is looking for FI alternatives and he also posted in the appropriate section so why do we keep telling him that he still doesn't need FI or car has plenty power.. and like I said, I don't think "super powerful boosted brz" might be ever needed, it's really hard to quantify the adequate power for BRZ ..in the stock form a stock BRZ/FRS cannot even deliver the rated 200 hp like the other 200 hp anyways with its torque dip..how can someone argue about that? that I don't know