This is not a winter car! Fed up! May end up selling...

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Too late.

Oversteer is slow.

No one is arguing that, but that doesn't change the fact that power off at the limit these cars will push which is also slow. They need to rotate more power off to be faster. Period. If you're getting over steer while on the gas that's a throttle management issue, not a spring rate problem.

Steady state at the limit != power on at the limit, I don't know how to simplify it any further for you.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Torsen differentials do not work the wparsons thinks they do.

Torsen differentials constantly shuffle torque across the differential according to any changes in relative grip left to right. When the torque bias ratio is exceeded the tire with insufficient grip starts spinning up. If the torque applied exceeds the grip available on both tires then both tires will spin up but the tire with less grip will spin up faster.

Tor(que) sen(sing) is the derivation of the trade name. Torque biasing is what they do. They are not limited slip devices. It amuses me that even so called expert auto journalists do not realize this about Torsen diffs.

Want a good demo? Try driving the latest Mustang GT, it does in the dry what our cars do on snow: squirms around slipping first left then right and back again. That's what a Torsen equipped car does when traction is nearly equal left to right.

I give up, you clearly don't know how to read. I said:

The bias ratio only comes into play when there is a difference in grip or weight between the rear tires. If both are on equally slick (or sticky) surfaces and not under decently big cornering forces it's not even a factor.

Notice the bolded and big words? I'm fully aware of how a torsen diff works, the issue is your comprehension.

Originally Posted by Suberman

This is why Torsen diffs are not preferred for high performance track driving. They work well in a street situation, mostly.

No, clutch diffs are preferred for track driving because if you get a wheel in the air they're still locked, they're cheaper to rebuild and when they fail they don't explode into a billion pieces.

If a race car lifts the inside tire under power with a torsen diff you have no power getting to the ground anymore (our cars cheat and will apply some brake to the wheel in the air, but that's not the point). With a clutch LSD you still have full power going to the tire still on the ground.

[Kfresh23]

I have an idea....start a NEW thread with a poll asking who has difficulty driving this car in winter. So far, in many threads I have seen, the ratio suggests that very few are having difficulty, and a small, select group, can't seem to handle it. This also suggests to me that it is the PERSON, not the CAR that needs help.
Any car in the world has the potential to get stuck....ANY car! There is no need to "rag" on this wonderful car.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

No one is arguing that oversteer is fast... The argument is that no one cares but you.

No, all serious drivers wish this car handled better. Only poseur baby drifters think it is set up correctly. That's why all the coilover kits have stiffer front spring rates. All the chassis faults show up big time when you try to drive this car in winter. Some of them show up in the wet. Even in the dry, you can't always get all the power down, which is ridiculous considering how little torque the engine develops. When better tires improve a car this much it needs better suspension.

As for understeer on lift off, there isn't a road car in the world set up to do that. Weight transfer effects alone cause a car to tighten its line when you lift off. All road cars "rotate" power off. Its a safety thing designed in by people who know what they're doing. Even Porsche had to fix the 911 to do this, early cars didn't and killed people. The Corvair didn't under some circumstances and killed people. GM fixed it but too late for litigation happy US so the Corvair got killed.

I don't know what "power off understeer" could possibly mean. A car just slows down power off. You can't be faster by getting off the gas to rotate the car, you brake to slow the car.

I do know there's a lot of driving BS being bandied about in this thread.

[wparsons]

^^ Cite your sources...

The reason coilover kits (and some springs) are running higher front spring rates is to keep the front suspension off the bump stops (which are much stiffer than the springs, FYI). The stock suspension is designed to use the bump stops as an integral part of the spring rate which some people don't like.

I'm not talking about lift off over or under steer, I'm talking about what a car does with no power or brakes applied at the limit. I'm not sure how you think the proper way to drive is, but the proper way to take a corner is:

brake
turn in (no brakes or power) towards apex
at the apex start slowly feeding in power as you unwind the steering angle
by the time you hit the exit point you should be going straight and at WOT

That's based on a circular entry and parabolic exit which is what most schools teach until you're really fast and ready for parabolic entries and trail braking.

If you're getting oversteer after the apex then it's throttle management (which you can and will get with any RWD car). At the limit on corner entry these cars will always push unless you're trail braking. To be faster they need to rotate better at turn in.

[wbradley]

Id be pretty sad to go from an FR-S to a Mazda 3. At least satisfy your need for performance and get a WRX. I did! It might actually keep me from feeling the need to slap a turbo on my FR-S.

[GYNXxx]

On another Note WParsons, Next time it snows I have a great spot to practice drifting in Whitby. You should come out sometime! We won't get stuck

[wparsons]

^^ Let me know when/where!

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by Suberman

No, all serious drivers wish this car handled better. Only poseur baby drifters think it is set up correctly. That's why all the coilover kits have stiffer front spring rates. All the chassis faults show up big time when you try to drive this car in winter. Some of them show up in the wet. Even in the dry, you can't always get all the power down, which is ridiculous considering how little torque the engine develops. When better tires improve a car this much it needs better suspension.

You just don't get it. I think you need to look into the inspiration and the motivation behind building the twins. If you think it has anything to do with cornering speeds then you are sadly mistaken.

This isn't a car for people who like fast cars, its a car for people who are still 12 years old at heart.

Slow car fast > fast car slow.

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

This isn't a car for people who like fast cars, its a car for people who are still 12 years old at heart.

Oddly enough, that's the reaction I get from my daughter when I slide around a corner or do a WOT merge onto the highway.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

You just don't get it. I think you need to look into the inspiration and the motivation behind building the twins. If you think it has anything to do with cornering speeds then you are sadly mistaken.

This isn't a car for people who like fast cars, its a car for people who are still 12 years old at heart.

Slow car fast > fast car slow.

Funny, that's just what I said.

I, however, am no longer twelve years old and have sufficient driving experience to know how much better this car could have been than it is. A Mazda MX5 with the same power would be quicker than this car, as Mazda is about to prove. If Mazda makes a coupe version, and they might since they have a JV going with Alfa Romeo, then I'm afraid the BRZ will be traded.

It's a shame this car isn't better. I intend to fit better tires come summer and then I'll see if the defects are still there. I suspect the grippier tires will be all I need until a nice bolt on supercharger kit comes along from Toyota/Subaru with a factory warranty, or after the warranty someone else does. More power would definitely show up this car's defects very quickly.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

I think you need to look into the inspiration and the motivation behind building the twins. If you think it has anything to do with cornering speeds then you are sadly mistaken.

This isn't a car for people who like fast cars, its a car for people who are still 12 years old at heart.
.

Funny, that's just what I said.

I'm not 12 so have enough experience to understand how Subaru/Toyota missed the mark. Shame really. Better tires will likely be enough to keep me interested but if a warranty approved bolt on supercharger kit comes out it better come with an up rated front roll bar and possibly a thinner rear bar.

Mazda's new MX5 is likely to make our cars look pretty juvenile. If Mazda builds a coupe version, and they might as part of the Alfa Romeo JV, then the BRZ will be in for trade.

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by Suberman

More power would definitely show up this car's defects very quickly.

Given the number of people who have significantly increased the power of the car and track it quite heavily, I'm really curious what exactly you think the "defects" are?

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Funny, that's just what I said.

I, however, am no longer twelve years old and have sufficient driving experience to know how much better this car could have been than it is. A Mazda MX5 with the same power would be quicker than this car, as Mazda is about to prove. If Mazda makes a coupe version, and they might since they have a JV going with Alfa Romeo, then I'm afraid the BRZ will be traded.

It's a shame this car isn't better. I intend to fit better tires come summer and then I'll see if the defects are still there. I suspect the grippier tires will be all I need until a nice bolt on supercharger kit comes along from Toyota/Subaru with a factory warranty, or after the warranty someone else does. More power would definitely show up this car's defects very quickly.

It's funny because every response further proves that you DONT GET IT. Yes an mx5 with the same power would be quicker! Who the f@ck cares thats not the point of the car! The car being slow and prone to oversteer doesnt mean toyota missed the mark, it means they NAILED IT.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wparsons

^^ Cite your sources...

The reason coilover kits (and some springs) are running higher front spring rates is to keep the front suspension off the bump stops (which are much stiffer than the springs, FYI). The stock suspension is designed to use the bump stops as an integral part of the spring rate which some people don't like.

I'm not talking about lift off over or under steer, I'm talking about what a car does with no power or brakes applied at the limit. I'm not sure how you think the proper way to drive is, but the proper way to take a corner is:

brake
turn in (no brakes or power) towards apex
at the apex start slowly feeding in power as you unwind the steering angle
by the time you hit the exit point you should be going straight and at WOT

That's based on a circular entry and parabolic exit which is what most schools teach until you're really fast and ready for parabolic entries and trail braking.

If you're getting oversteer after the apex then it's throttle management (which you can and will get with any RWD car). At the limit on corner entry these cars will always push unless you're trail braking. To be faster they need to rotate better at turn in.

Your grandmother may need a lesson but I don't.

If you have to get out of the throttle after the apex your BRZ is inadequately set up for that corner, my point actually, this car cannot put its modest power down. As Sir Jackie days, don't apply the power until you're sure you don't have to take it off....I'll take his advice over yours anyday.

None of the techniques you refer to have any real value on the street, btw.