Tesla Model S

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

There's more to it than that. You know all those "free" roads we drive on? They are paid for by gasoline taxes for the most part. As the fleet of "alternative fuel" cars grow, and MPG or eMPG continues to grow, someone/somewhere has to pay for the roads.

The recharge may be free now, but it can't stay that way forever. Tesla may not charge anything for the electricity, but it will cost money.

Well of course the "free" recharging is a marketing perk, but so are "free" oil changes that BMW and others offer. They get it back in other ways, just like other freebies.

As for roads and related infrastructure, clearly an overhaul of the funding model will be in order as the traditional model becomes increasingly inadequate and unfair. There are already rumors floating around of taxing miles traveled rather than fuel purchased. One version of that that I heard was bone-chillingly creepy, involving a required black box that records not just miles driven, but on which roads and when.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I also believe that the Volt would have been a more efficient car without the battery pack. That pack weighs 435lbs and is basically dead weight after 30 to 40 miles.

The Volt has no drivetrain. ICE is only a generator.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

The Volt has no drivetrain. ICE is only a generator.

No, I understand. I meant, I wonder if you were willing to give up the 30-40 minutes of "free" travel and got rid of the battery pack if the weight savings using just the "extended range" portion and a small enough battery for the transitional power would make a better car.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Well of course the "free" recharging is a marketing perk, but so are "free" oil changes that BMW and others offer. They get it back in other ways, just like other freebies.

I really meant Tesla may be able to give it away for now but eventually the electricity will have to have some type of "road tax" associated with it, either directly or through one of the means you refer to below.

Originally Posted by einzlr

As for roads and related infrastructure, clearly an overhaul of the funding model will be in order as the traditional model becomes increasingly inadequate and unfair. There are already rumors floating around of taxing miles traveled rather than fuel purchased. One version of that that I heard was bone-chillingly creepy, involving a required black box that records not just miles driven, but on which roads and when.

I recall the "bone-chillingly creepy" version of it as well and it makes me want to go visit the guns thread. Folks have already proven they are willing to submit to this for convenience though. eToll passes and hot lanes are examples of that already.

The government already knows how many miles we drive every year, at least in states with emissions inspections. I don't see the need for other type of tracking for that purpose should they convert to that.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

No, I understand. I meant, I wonder if you were willing to give up the 30-40 minutes of "free" travel and got rid of the battery pack if the weight savings using just the "extended range" portion and a small enough battery for the transitional power would make a better car.

While that does make sense, the majority of people commute less than 40 miles to and from work. My friend who owns a volt took him 3 and half months before he visited a gas station. He figured at his current rate of usage he's getting more than 1000 miles per gallon (because electricity from his house is cheap and not from coal, cuz PacNW). He also only keeps 2-3 gallons of fuel in his gas tank because there's not point in carrying extra weight around when he's doing 99% of his driving in electric only mode.

So yeah, for 90%+ people who would own a volt (due to the statistical average of driving habits and distances) the "generator" gets very little use and thus ditching the battery pack to simply use the generator all the time would be a massive decrease in efficiency and a massive increase in CO2 emissions vs using the Volt in the manner in which it was designed.

IMHO, the VOLT only did 3 things wrong, otherwise I would own one.

1: It's ugly but not too ugly to own, until you get inside of it. It's interior is on par with that of the Mazda 2 or any other econobox IMO.

2: This low-tier interior could be forgiven if the price was $20-25k. (kind of like how I forgive the FRS for its somewhat awful interior.) So yeah, the Volt needed to be more affordable.

3: The "generator" needed to be a more efficient and fuel conscious power plant. AKA: Diesel... better yet, diesel that is compatible with bio-diesel. Talk about being an environmentally friendly car. For 40 miles I don't need to burn a drop of fuel and when I do I burn fuel from French Fry grease and generate electrons more efficiently then doing it from petrol.

And there's the conundrum... If they addressed issues (1) and (3) they would worsen issue (2) significantly.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

3: The "generator" needed to be a more efficient and fuel conscious power plant. AKA: Diesel... better yet, diesel that is compatible with bio-diesel. Talk about being an environmentally friendly car. For 40 miles I don't need to burn a drop of fuel and when I do I burn fuel from French Fry grease and generate electrons more efficiently then doing it from petrol.

And there's the conundrum... If they addressed issues (1) and (3) they would worsen issue (2) significantly.

I have this feeling that the generator is actually pretty good, but the fact that it shunts power to the battery screws up the efficiency. Series hybrid inherent problem. What is it rated at, 37mpg? With 15% extra conversion losses that's 42mpgish "ideally", which is around how much energy it takes to move a car like that (combined cycle).

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

The Volt has no drivetrain. ICE is only a generator.

I believe this is a GM reinforced myth.

Edit: Here we go: http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/motor-...ts-powertrain/

Basically the difference between it and a Prius is when in gas mode the Volt's electric motor never turns off. But its gas motor does mechanically drive the planetary transmission.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

While that does make sense, the majority of people commute less than 40 miles to and from work.

And that is one way to work for me, so I'd be running on gas at least half the time, hence me wondering what I was wondering...

Originally Posted by rice_classic

IMHO, the VOLT only did 3 things wrong, otherwise I would own one.

1: It's ugly but not too ugly to own, until you get inside of it. It's interior is on par with that of the Mazda 2 or any other econobox IMO.

2: This low-tier interior could be forgiven if the price was $20-25k. (kind of like how I forgive the FRS for its somewhat awful interior.) So yeah, the Volt needed to be more affordable.

3: The "generator" needed to be a more efficient and fuel conscious power plant. AKA: Diesel... better yet, diesel that is compatible with bio-diesel. Talk about being an environmentally friendly car. For 40 miles I don't need to burn a drop of fuel and when I do I burn fuel from French Fry grease and generate electrons more efficiently then doing it from petrol.

And there's the conundrum... If they addressed issues (1) and (3) they would worsen issue (2) significantly.

I agree it should have been a diesel rather than gas. I don't know if there is any disadvantage of diesel over gas in a long term storage tank.

Your buddy, for example, does need to worry about water in the fuel. Fuel in a partially filled tank will gain water through condensation and the water is going to sink (heavier than gas).

This doesn't happen in a full tank. I realize its not quite the same, but I have personally drained a gallon of water out of a Cessna 172 tank that was parked for a month without the tanks being topped off. Top them off, it doesn't happen.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I have this feeling that the generator is actually pretty good, but the fact that it shunts power to the battery screws up the efficiency. Series hybrid inherent problem. What is it rated at, 37mpg? With 15% extra conversion losses that's 42mpgish "ideally", which is around how much energy it takes to move a car like that (combined cycle).

37 combined is actually pretty good so I'm not going to complain about losses. 37 combined is actually what the much lighter automatic CR-Z does. Plus they would not be able to get away with a N/A 1.4L in a normal American car of that size. I say it's brilliant even though it's really a hybrid electric and NOT an electric car.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And that is one way to work for me, so I'd be running on gas at least half the time, hence me wondering what I was wondering...

Even if you run on Gasoline half the time, the other half you're getting excellent MPG. Plus it gets a solid 40 MPG highway ICE only so it's not an guzzler by any means. Say if you have a 60 mile commute and get 30 miles electric and 30 miles gasoline we're talking over 60 MPG(approx 69). Better than the Prius' 50MPG. Even if you're not recharging at work you're looking at 90 miles @ 40 MPG and 30 miles at 98 MPG = 54.5 MPG. Now a Model S would be all at 90 MPG and in some sort of luxury for only $10k more but...yeah $10k more.

I'm not doing a cost comparison. If I was going to spend close to that much on a car already, I'd get one, but not because it's saving money or the planet. I just think it's super cool to be efficient.

Gasoline does have a shelf life. I think it's somewhere between 3-6 months after it's pumped but I'm not sure, I haven't read anything official on it. Now Diesel is a huge regulatory PITA when they can just shove a cheaper and more powerful Gasoline engine into it. The only reasons it's popular in Europe is 1) taxes 2) emissions.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Gasoline does have a shelf life. I think it's somewhere between 3-6 months after it's pumped but I'm not sure, I haven't read anything official on it. Now Diesel is a huge regulatory PITA when they can just shove a cheaper and more powerful Gasoline engine into it. The only reasons it's popular in Europe is 1) taxes 2) emissions.

Yup, EPA/CAFE are the NOx Nazis, and they don't exist in other countries. And yea, Europe's weird taxes make diesel cheap to run, but that's not necessarily how it goes everywhere else.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I believe this is a GM reinforced myth.

Edit: Here we go: http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/motor-...ts-powertrain/

Basically the difference between it and a Prius is when in gas mode the Volt's electric motor never turns off. But its gas motor does mechanically drive the planetary transmission.

I was incorrect to say the Volt doesn't have a drivetrain. It doesn't have a drivetrain in the traditional sense would have been more accurate. The ICE isn't bolted to a tranny with multiple gears to propel the car. But instead the Electric motor(s) feed the rotational force through a planetary gearset through the driveshafts. I really have to be more careful with my words. Also, thanks for the link!

It looks like the real myth is that the ICE doesn't propel the vehicle. I had fallen for it too (obviously, look what I've been posting) but this paragraph here exposes that while that myth is true 90% of the time, there is a situation in which it is not true and GM clears it up with careful wording:

From that link

However of particular interest, when going above 70 mph in charge sustaining mode, andthe generator gets coupled to the drivetrain, the gas engine participates in the motive force. GM says the engine never drives the wheels all by itself, but will participate in this particular situation in the name of efficiency, which is improved by 10 to 15 percent.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Yup, EPA/CAFE are the NOx Nazis, and they don't exist in other countries. And yea, Europe's weird taxes make diesel cheap to run, but that's not necessarily how it goes everywhere else.

Shows some differences in several EU.. India is also quite up on Diesel.

[rice_classic]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX5ZwzNwTc4"]Chevrolet Volt Drive Simulation - YouTube[/ame]

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And that is one way to work for me, so I'd be running on gas at least half the time, hence me wondering what I was wondering...

Same here, but what I'd like to see is faster progress in the charging-infrastructure department. If I could plug the car in at work (and at my apartment complex :P), something like a Volt or a Leaf would be a great commuter daily.