Winter

[FRiSson]

Got my 16" steelies on yesterday. Shod with Michelin X-Ice3 tires.

Feels a lot different in the dry. The ride is softer, the initial turn in is sharp, then it gets kind of soft. Braking feels.... like air brakes, with a soft initial response then a tiny lag before it bites. The ride is slightly jouncier, like one of those exercise balls. It squeals on even minor turns, but that may have something to do with the release solution that hasn't worn off of the tires yet. On the highway, the tires give of a kind of harmonic booming at around 60-65, but it is pretty mild. Overall different, but not bad.

[Sony]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Well that's just it, I argue that the FRS would be good in the snow, because it's light and well balanced. Others seem to ignore the whole physics thing and argue that they'd prefer tanks.

Well when you already own a tank with the best All-Terrain tires and 4WD...there is really no point in driving a RWD sports car with Summer tires in the snow...nor is there a reason to purchase winter tires for it :P

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Sony

Well when you already own a tank with the best All-Terrain tires and 4WD...there is really no point in driving a RWD sports car with Summer tires in the snow...nor is there a reason to purchase winter tires for it :P

four wheel drive doesn't mean four wheel stop. More accidents are caused during stopping than accelerating

[jmaryt]

are you still here? ehe! he! he!
guess we gotta say it again! please pay attention
mr.physics: IF you drive at the correct speed for the existing
conditions,you won't have to be concerned about accidents,BECAUSE
you will be able to stop safely too,unless somebody hits ya,of course!
this applies to ANY vehicle,not just 4-wheel drive,but i suspect you already know this?

[Sony]

Originally Posted by 2forme

four wheel drive doesn't mean four wheel stop. More accidents are caused during stopping than accelerating

But again...my truck has brand new tires with a very good snow rating. Why would I drive the BRZ in the snow when I have a truck that is far more capable.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Sony

But again...my truck has brand new tires with a very good snow rating. Why would I drive the BRZ in the snow when I have a truck that is far more capable.

Oh I wouldn't. That's why I bought the winter beater. If you don't have to subject the brz to salt then by all means... my point is a lighter more balanced vehicle with snow tires will be better in the snow than a heavy tank. I wasn't talking about your situation with having a winter vehicle.

[Sony]

Done right however with the proper tires, a heavier vehicle like a pickup truck has a higher ground pressure, which in turn means more traction in slippery conditions. With the right setup (Snow Tires, narrow tires, ABS turned off...etc) in theory a heavier vehicle could stop quicker than a lighter one in a straight line due to more traction, whereas the lighter vehicle would have a tendency to float. Think of a Zamboni in an Ice Rink, they weigh around 10,000lbs but have narrow tires to increase ground pressure on the ice, increasing traction and preventing them from skidding on the ice. They do not have studded tires since studs would damage the ice surface they want perfectly smooth. Same deal with cars that race on ice, if you look at ice racing tires they are super narrow (usually 195's to 205's) to increase ground pressure.

[jmaryt]

really? ok! i'll tell ya what! you take your "lightweight" sports car equipped with
proper snow tires out in a major heavy wet snow situation ,and i'll take a much "heavier"
vehicle,equipped the same way,and we'll see who gets home! .god! i hope i don't have to rescue you! ehe! he! he! to be perfectly honest,you will be wishing you went out in that "tank!" ehe! he! he! as you mentioned,this is all dependent on your physics theory right?

[2forme]

Originally Posted by jmaryt

really? ok! i'll tell ya what! you take your "lightweight" sports car equipped with
proper snow tires out in a major heavy wet snow situation ,and i'll take a much "heavier"
vehicle,equipped the same way,and we'll see who gets home! .god! i hope i don't have to rescue you! ehe! he! he! to be perfectly honest,you will be wishing you went out in that "tank!" ehe! he! he! as you mentioned,this is all dependent on your physics theory right?

Sure, give me an MR2 Spyder (2195 lbs) with Toyo snows and watch me skate around Hummers that can't get up hills or turn. Oh wait! That's already happened!

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Sony

Done right however with the proper tires, a heavier vehicle like a pickup truck has a higher ground pressure, which in turn means more traction in slippery conditions. With the right setup (Snow Tires, narrow tires, ABS turned off...etc) in theory a heavier vehicle could stop quicker than a lighter one in a straight line due to more traction, whereas the lighter vehicle would have a tendency to float. Think of a Zamboni in an Ice Rink, they weigh around 10,000lbs but have narrow tires to increase ground pressure on the ice, increasing traction and preventing them from skidding on the ice. They do not have studded tires since studs would damage the ice surface they want perfectly smooth. Same deal with cars that race on ice, if you look at ice racing tires they are super narrow (usually 195's to 205's) to increase ground pressure.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. A heavier vehicle has more kinetic energy when moving. Therefor it requires more "work" to stop than a lighter vehicle. When tires, balance, and friction are the same (snow), the heavier vehicle can't stop or change direction as quick as the lighter vehicle. It's just not physically possible.

I know a lot of people think that heavier = pushing down more snow. But snow doesn't disappear when compressed, leaving only nice tractionable pavement under. No, it compresses and becomes slippery all the same.

You're welcome to the physics and mechanical engineering books sitting on my GF's desk

[Sony]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. A heavier vehicle has more kinetic energy when moving. Therefor it requires more "work" to stop than a lighter vehicle. When tires, balance, and friction are the same (snow), the heavier vehicle can't stop or change direction as quick as the lighter vehicle. It's just not physically possible.

I know a lot of people think that heavier = pushing down more snow. But snow doesn't disappear when compressed, leaving only nice tractionable pavement under. No, it compresses and becomes slippery all the same.

You're welcome to the physics and mechanical engineering books sitting on my GF's desk

I never said when friction is the same, of course when friction is the SAME the lighter car will win. I said when friction is HIGHER on a heavier vehicle, i.e. when it's producing a higher PSI on the ground and therefore getting MORE traction. Ice isn't frictionless, it just has a VERY low friction, increasing the pressure (weight) on the ground increases that friction allowing the vehicle to have increased grip. My truck only weighs about 4100lbs, about 1400lbs more than the BRZ which is LESS than twice as much (Of course a fullsize pickup truck would have more trouble with this) but I would be willing to venture a guess that with the proper tires (real snow tires, not my AT Firestones but like Blizzaks or something in like 245/75) it would have more than TWICE the ground friction of the BRZ. Honestly, I don't know for sure, I don't have all the mathematical formulas sitting in my house but I've seen them done before. This is why Ice Truckers can drive on ice in relative safety with just regular tires, because their ground pressure is so high, yes they still slip and slide around to some degree but less so than a normal vehicle, no one makes Blizzak's for Semi-Trucks...one must remember that the Co-Efficient of Friction is directly related to the mass of a vehicle, the heavier the vehicle, the higher the co-efficient of friction will be with the same tires.

Now....did that Hummer have snow tires? or was it a dumbass who didn't properly winterize their vehicle and was running the stock highway all-seasons that the hummer comes with. I no longer consider the Hummer a capable offroad vehicle...it's a soccer-mom car driven by soccer-moms and therefore they do not equip it with decent tires from the factory, nor do the soccer-moms who drive them have any real experience or capability in the snow. People who drive hummers buy them because they think they are "good in bad weather" because they know of the legacy of the original H1, but the H2 and H3 are NOTHING like the H1 and they have lost all their adverse weather prowess without major modification. It's not exactly a fair comparison, in order to get a fair comparison would would need two vehicles both WITH ABS or both WITHOUT ABS (i.e. my Truck with ABS vs. your MR2 without ABS would not be a fair comparison) with the exactly same brand of tires in their proper sizes, together on the same snow covered parking lot to do a stop distance test. i.e. get up to 25mph then pass a set of cones and stomp on the brakes and see who stops in the shortest distance.

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. A heavier vehicle has more kinetic energy when moving. Therefor it requires more "work" to stop than a lighter vehicle. When tires, balance, and friction are the same (snow), the heavier vehicle can't stop or change direction as quick as the lighter vehicle. It's just not physically possible.

I know a lot of people think that heavier = pushing down more snow. But snow doesn't disappear when compressed, leaving only nice tractionable pavement under. No, it compresses and becomes slippery all the same.

You're welcome to the physics and mechanical engineering books sitting on my GF's desk

we are NOT talking about that my friend! we are talking about moving in slippery conditions without getting stuck! ya need weight for that! (ballast!)
if ya drive properly for the conditions,ie: slow the fuck down,then it doesn't matter,but ya need to keep moving,and the heavier vehicle is the better choice! you DON'T need a degree in physics to figure this out! all ya need is a real world education driving in slippery conditions."sony" sounds like he's been drivin' for a while,and i have been for over 45 years,but i guess that don't make 2 sh**s difference,both of us need to take a F**in' physics course!

[Sony]

Originally Posted by jmaryt

we are NOT talking about that my friend! we are talking about moving in slippery conditions without getting stuck! ya need weight for that! (ballast!)
if ya drive properly for the conditions,ie: slow the fuck down,then it doesn't matter,but ya need to keep moving,and the heavier vehicle is the better choice! you DON'T need a degree in physics to figure this out! all ya need is a real world education driving in slippery conditions."sony" sounds like he's been drivin' for a while,and i have been for over 45 years,but i guess that don't make 2 sh**s difference,both of us need to take a F**in' physics course!

lol dude chill out! 2forme and I are buddies in real life (same age and we live 2 miles from each other) and we enjoy giving each other shit so there is no reason to get testy!

We actually were debating stopping capabilities in snow previously, not ability to get stuck/unstuck. Ether way though I'd prefer my Tacoma, and in all honestly, the person behind the wheel matters far more than the tires you choose. Experience is everything and every year it seems I end up driving in some crazy weather with the truck and it hasn't failed me yet. I've driven that thing home 2 hours at 2am in the morning in a blizzard with 12" of brand new unplowed snow on the road doing 55mph and it's always been solid as a rock. I've also driven it home in the middle of a major nor'easter and it's has many a day slogging through the deep sand of the cape cod beaches. It has NEVER gotten stuck, not once and it has pulled many others out of some crazy situations, it's my all-around vehicle and I'm going to keep it until it dies, same with the BRZ.

[jmaryt]

as you are aware,it is difficult to convey one's true thoughts
in this emotionless medium,so i will go on record as stating that
i have no malicious intentions,as i consider the topic under discussion
a matter of driving experience accumulated over many,many years
of being involved in treacherous road conditions,and NOT just a matter
of a scientific evaluation.it's kewl to be aware that you guys know each other,
and this is not a "**** measuring" contest,because frankly,i have little interest in that!
in the final analysis,i don't believe i will be out and about in a slippery snow condition
with this car.i'll just get off the road,and let the real "heavyweights" (snow plow jockeys) do their thing,and venture out after everything blows over.i'm all in ,and done.
(b.t.w.) i think your choice in the "tacoma" is a good one.they seem to get around ok,especially equipped with 4 wheel drive,and weight in the box.