Stunt driving in Ontario crackdown

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

If I had have found myself in the position, I would have, as I am now with a "nullified" see revoked, firearm registration certificate.

I have zero doubt that that is for the best!

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You can read right?

(ii) Where presumptive ceiling is exceeded
Where the total delay (minus defence delay) exceeds the presumptive ceiling, it is presumptively unreasonable. However, the Crown may rebut this presumption by showing that the delay is reasonable due to exceptional circumstances (Jordan, supra at paragraph 68).

Exceptional circumstances are defined as those that lie outside the Crown’s control in the sense that they are: (a) reasonably unforeseen or reasonably unavoidable, and (b) such that Crown counsel cannot reasonably remedy the delays emanating from those circumstances once they arise (Jordan, supra at paragraph 69).

While the determination of whether circumstances are “exceptional” will ultimately depend on the trial judge’s good sense and experience, they will generally fall under one of two categories:

Discrete events: Discrete exceptional events or circumstances are ones that are (i) reasonably unforeseeable or unavoidable, and (ii) could not be reasonably mitigated by the Crown or the justice system (Cody, supra at paragraph 48; Jordan, supra at paragraphs 73 and 75). Delay caused by discrete events result in quantitative deductions of particular periods of time from the net total (Cody, supra at paragraph 48).

That’s not the charter.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have zero doubt that that is for the best!

Lawl. Only the certificate was revoked. Now the gun is unregistered. Which is actually better for me. I can take it everywhere now.

[2020BRZtS]

I'm a little confused. We are talking about a traffic citation for stunt driving? If I read correctly the OP paid a storage fee to get the car out of impound and his license reinstated. Even with a summons, isn't any possible negative outcome already eroded by time? From what I know about where I live if the offense is appealed, the original officer must appear in court. With the amount of time that has passed that officer would be either promoted or transferred out of the district by now and the case would be thrown out, especially without video evidence.

Is there more to this than I am reading?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That’s not the charter.

No. It is the LAW that adds the details to the charter.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by 2020BRZtS

I'm a little confused. We are talking about a traffic citation for stunt driving? If I read correctly the OP paid a storage fee to get the car out of impound and his license reinstated. Even with a summons, isn't any possible negative outcome already eroded by time? From what I know about where I live if the offense is appealed, the original officer must appear in court. With the amount of time that has passed that officer would be either promoted or transferred out of the district by now and the case would be thrown out, especially without video evidence.

Is there more to this than I am reading?

Canadian cops don't tend to move around a whole lot and if he still works for any department he will be expected to appear (with a few exceptions in which case, with court approval, he can submit a written statement instead).
As I have said over and over and is written in black and white the time "limit" for Provincial Court cases is usually18 months. This of course has been extended due to COVID and could take a few years to be heard. Yes a judge could say it is too long and throw it out but that is not likely with the current backlog. Counting on it being thrown out because out was not "speedy" is just not realistic in the current state of the system even though if it was me I would certainly ask for that when the time came.

The thing with this whole case is that if or when it does go to court, based solely ippon his narrative of events in the first post, he would probably get off anyway. The whole thing about the stunt racing category is that they have to prove "intent". It is easy to prove that somebody doing 50 over the speed limit, smoking up the tires, doing doughnuts in the road, weaving in and out of traffic at speed, etc intended those actions. Not so easy to prove that somebody slipping a wheel until traction control came on was intended. At very least he could get the charge dropped to something less serious.
Now.... of course the cop may have a completely different version of events but we will never know that side of the story.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Canadian cops don't tend to move around a whole lot and if he still works for any department he will be expected to appear (with a few exceptions in which case, with court approval, he can submit a written statement instead).

The whole "cop doesn't show the case gets kicked" thing doesn't work in the US as much as people thinks it does either.

Ultimately, it may be time to "Moose Girl" this conversation....

[wbradley]

The police officer, who happened to be a sargeant, clearly stated that deliberately breaking traction at all 4 wheels constitutes stunt driving. So, that should be what his accusation will be.
I would argue that I never broke traction at 4 wheels, deliberate or otherwise. Again, I believe this policeman was looking to screw me over, whether he had a valid charge or not. I would have not sped around the corner or opened up the throttle as much going down the road afterward had I known he was watching. But, I still did not drift, deliberately or otherwise and I don't think he can prove otherwise unless there was video of me drifting which there can't be. On Pilot Sport tires, probably couldn't drift if I wanted to! And I wouldn't want to anyway. My car is pretty obviously set up for maximum traction, not sliding.
With the supercharger, I do tend to open up the throttle ocasionally on the highway, probably just to make sure it's working properly, especially if I haven't driven for a few days, which was the case on the day of this incident. If anything, I probably was guilty of speeding momentarily, but nowhere near stunt driving speed.
I believe this policeman threw what he could at me since he didn't have anything else and someone who had the audacity to do what I did while he watched deserves to be punished in his view. He probably could have let me go, but on Aug '20 when people were hiding from Covid I took my car out to blow off some carbon. Incidentally, he was unmasked and didn't seem to like my comment that he should mask up when approaching my window. If he only knew, I actually lost my Dad to Covid 5 months later, my point was valid. He tried to escalate the incident as far as he was able to at that particular point in time. I mean, there were 4 more police officers called to the scene and at one point they asked me if it was OK if they cuffed me. Why, to put on a show for the passing motorists? And why did they ask me for permission? Who would say yes? When I stated that I was well aware of the definitions of stunt driving, he asked me what I did for a living. If I was a lawyer, I'd bet anything he would have let me go to avoid possible reprisal.
It all smells very bad to me overall.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No. It is the LAW that adds the details to the charter.

PERFECT!

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Canadian cops don't tend to move around a whole lot and if he still works for any department he will be expected to appear (with a few exceptions in which case, with court approval, he can submit a written statement instead).
As I have said over and over and is written in black and white the time "limit" for Provincial Court cases is usually18 months. This of course has been extended due to COVID and could take a few years to be heard. Yes a judge could say it is too long and throw it out but that is highly likely with the current backlog. Counting on it being thrown out because out was not "speedy" is just not realistic in the current state of the system even though if it was me I would certainly ask for that when the time came.

The thing with this whole case is that if or when it does go to court, based solely ippon his narrative of events in the first post, he would probably get off anyway. The whole thing about the stunt racing category is that they have to prove "intent". It is easy to prove that somebody doing 50 over the speed limit, smoking up the tires, doing doughnuts in the road, weaving in and out of traffic at speed, etc intended those actions. Not so easy to prove that somebody slipping a wheel until traction control came on was intended. At very least he could get the charge dropped to something less serious.
Now.... of course the cop may have a completely different version of events but we will never know that side of the story.

FIFY

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The police officer, who happened to be a sargeant, clearly stated that deliberately breaking traction at all 4 wheels constitutes stunt driving. So, that should be what his accusation will be.
I would argue that I never broke traction at 4 wheels, deliberate or otherwise. Again, I believe this policeman was looking to screw me over, whether he had a valid charge or not. I would have not sped around the corner or opened up the throttle as much going down the road afterward had I known he was watching. But, I still did not drift, deliberately or otherwise and I don't think he can prove otherwise unless there was video of me drifting which there can't be. On Pilot Sport tires, probably couldn't drift if I wanted to! And I wouldn't want to anyway. My car is pretty obviously set up for maximum traction, not sliding.
With the supercharger, I do tend to open up the throttle ocasionally on the highway, probably just to make sure it's working properly, especially if I haven't driven for a few days, which was the case on the day of this incident. If anything, I probably was guilty of speeding momentarily, but nowhere near stunt driving speed.
I believe this policeman threw what he could at me since he didn't have anything else and someone who had the audacity to do what I did while he watched deserves to be punished in his view. He probably could have let me go, but on Aug '20 when people were hiding from Covid I took my car out to blow off some carbon. Incidentally, he was unmasked and didn't seem to like my comment that he should mask up when approaching my window. If he only knew, I actually lost my Dad to Covid 5 months later, my point was valid. He tried to escalate the incident as far as he was able to at that particular point in time. I mean, there were 4 more police officers called to the scene and at one point they asked me if it was OK if they cuffed me. Why, to put on a show for the passing motorists? Any why did they ask me for permission? Who would say yes? When I stated that I was well aware of the definitions of stunt driving, he asked me what I did for a living. If I was a lawyer, I'd bet anything he would have let me go to avoid possible reprisal.
It all smells very bad to me overall.

Pretty hard to break traction of the front wheels of a rwd car leaving a light...

[wbradley]

Actually, I sped up to make the light to get on to the highway, so was never stopped at the light. I rounded the corner then as soon as the corner was completed I mashed the throttle and took off down the highway. Only a car with LSD can really do this without activating traction control/throttle cutout and I was almost tempted to say to the policeman, "Lucky I've got a limited slip differential", but decided under the circumstances better to hear what his complaint is.
This did not cause huge wheel spin as the HKS blower produces max torque at high revs, but the car likely wagged ever so slightly as it took off since that highway often has sand and gravel scattered on it.
Incidentally, the LSD kicking is is the OPPOSITE of losing traction.

[RToyo86]

I got a minor speeding ticket back in sept 2019 that I decided to take to court. Heard very little until mid 2020, by then I submitted 3 disclosure requests to obtain the officers notes from the stop. I never recieved anything.

Going on 3 years now and still no resolution, so I'm assuming my case was dropped.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

I got a minor speeding ticket back in sept 2019 that I decided to take to court. Heard very little until mid 2020, by then I submitted 3 disclosure requests to obtain the officers notes from the stop. I never recieved anything.

Going on 3 years now and still no resolution, so I'm assuming my case was dropped.

Must work different in Canada. In the states where I live, the ticket has your initial court date on it. There is no waiting. You can postpone it by calling but they always give you a new date and in most places you can only do it once.