AP Racing brake systems in development

[schtebie]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I like my Formula kit. Definitely a lot quieter than the Sprint kit I had the chance to observe. No comment on performance between the two as I've only been driving on the Formula kit.

Can't go wrong either way. One may suit your needs better than the other. I'd just call Jeff and have him give you the pros/cons for your environment.

What do you mean by quieter? When braking, when rolling, etc?

And do you have any plans to take the car to the track at all?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by schtebie

What do you mean by quieter? When braking, when rolling, etc?

And do you have any plans to take the car to the track at all?

Braking. They're high performance brakes, they make noises...my Formula kit makes less noise than the Sprint kit I heard.

Yes, but this is my DD and it's not getting its brakes checked/rebuilt often while being driven in the winter with all that nice salt.

[schtebie]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Braking. They're high performance brakes, they make noises...my Formula kit makes less noise than the Sprint kit I heard.

Yes, but this is my DD and it's not getting its brakes checked/rebuilt often while being driven in the winter with all that nice salt.

Is it possible that's a function of the pad compound? Just curious.

I appreciate the feedback about your experience considering most forum members haven't had the opportunity to see/hear both setups. :happy0180:

It certainly makes a lot more sense to have the Formula setup when you have to deal with road salt in the winter. It makes the decision tougher for me since I don't have that to worry about.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by schtebie

Is it possible that's a function of the pad compound? Just curious.

I appreciate the feedback about your experience considering most forum members haven't had the opportunity to see/hear both setups. :happy0180:

It certainly makes a lot more sense to have the Formula setup when you have to deal with road salt in the winter. It makes the decision tougher for me since I don't have that to worry about.

Pad compound is definitely a part of it, but I'm running high Cf street pads vs race pands and don't have shims or pad rattle clips (which doesn't matter since the Sprint kit doesn't include those either).

Don't have road salt? Get the Sprint kit; the fact I DD through winter is what turned me off to that caliper. Unless you're looking for rotor flushness, in which case the Formula kit has the larger diameter rotor vs. the Sprint kit.

What I will say is that Essex has the support structure in place for their kits; there will always be parts on the shelf if you need one overnight.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by schtebie

Thanks to everyone for replying. I was just curious how well the kit is holding up on the street. I've considered the Formula kit route, but knowing that the dust boots will eventually disintegrate and make a mess after some track time makes the Sprint Kit even more appealing.

Any input to push me in either direction (Formula vs Sprint)?

If no need to worry about road salt and you care more about performance and plan on tracking go with the sprint kit; ~21lbs lighter unsprung mass compared to the Formula kit, cost is nearly $1000 less, and it has cheaper wear item replacement costs...

The only real advantage the Formula kit has over the Sprint kit is massive heat sink reserve from the disc mass and pad area which would be of benefit if you are making much more than stock power....if you are making close to stock power the weight penalty of the Formula Kit verses the Sprint kit is just really not worth it. Formula kit is chosen more for appearance (versus Sprint kit) unless there is a massive increase in the power level of the motor that could actually benefit more from having the Formula kit installed over the Sprint kit. The Formula kit will not slow the car down any better than the Sprint kit in nominal conditions and is more likely to have slightly increased braking distances over rough surfaces (due to unsprung mass penalty and the extra work the suspension has to do compared to the Sprint Kit)

[jonnyozero3]

I've got the Sprint Kit on a daily-driven BRZ. Car will not be driven when there's salt on the roads. Have three track days on her now too (Mid America Motorplex in IA). I've started with the Ferodo DS2500 front and rear.

Overall, I adore the kit. According to Harry's Laptimer I was putting down 1.2G's of sustained lineal deceleration on street tires (max perf Dunlops). They look badass and hold up amazingly well on track. I'm mostly novice, but don't need an instructor. For useage context, I was doing a 1:54.xx or so at MAM and passing some, but not all, of a Porsche Club "green" group.

Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but my experience so far has been:

- initial bed in on streets: no noise, some color on rotor.
- track day one: some noise, some color on rotor.
- a week or so of no noise on street really (minus a stop squeak now and then)
- track day two: lots of noise developed under hard use. noise on street after track day two
- track day three: pads finally off-gas significantly...I go off the track nearly straight just starting to trail brake when the pad grip just disappeared, no other change in feel or pressure. I'm a noob, so I'm guessing here - I'm assuming it wasn't "ice mode" because after that, the rotors were a beautiful grey/blue color, and the pads suddenly did not make any noise on track. They stayed well composed for another run or two afterwards, and for a week off the track. That included glorious street silence for a week.
- A week post-track: the rotors are all silver again and squeak like a raped monkey. It's horrendous and far, far too much for a daily driver. Again, I'm a noob, but I'm guessing the pads are not getting up to temp on the street and are just scraping off their bed layer, then being bitchy (noisy) about it.
- I tried to re-bed the pads...did about 15x 80-5mph stop cycles. Pads were quiet again for about three days.

My conclusion (again, as a n00b):

- The AP Sprint kit is flipping great. Well worth the no fade, repeatable, awesome performance. Also, looks insane on the car.
- Even if you are a noob or intermediate, the AP kit ventilates so well, that in moderate/chill temps it's tough to even bed in the DS2500.
- After bed in, the DS2500 will still wear it's bed in layer off in a week of street driving and squeal like a mother

What does this mean to me?
For a DD, I don't recommend the DS2500 as a dual use pad. I could be doing something wrong (dear god, someone enlighten me! and I'll fix this post), but it just gets noisy over time. I think a set of street pads and then track pads are probably the way to go. I am amazed some folks are running other pads dual use...either those have much better noise levels...or my hearing is just too good.

Edit - I wonder if shims or grinding the edges of the DS2500 down to an angle is worthwhile?

Edit2 - (removed; OBE)

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by jonnyozero3

I've got the Sprint Kit on a daily-driven BRZ. Car will not be driven when there's salt on the roads. Have three track days on her now too (Mid America Motorplex in IA). I've started with the Ferodo DS2500 front and rear.

Overall, I adore the kit. According to Harry's Laptimer I was putting down 1.2G's of sustained lineal deceleration on street tires (max perf Dunlops). They look badass and hold up amazingly well on track. I'm mostly novice, but don't need an instructor. For useage context, I was doing a 1:54.xx or so at MAM and passing some, but not all, of a Porsche Club "green" group.

Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but my experience so far has been:

- initial bed in on streets: no noise, some color on rotor.
- track day one: some noise, some color on rotor.
- a week or so of no noise on street really (minus a stop squeak now and then)
- track day two: lots of noise developed under hard use. noise on street after track day three
- track day three: pads finally off-gas significantly...I go off the track nearly straight just starting to trail brake when the pad grip just disappeared, no other change in feel or pressure. I'm a noob, so I'm guessing here - I'm assuming it wasn't "ice mode" because after that, the rotors were a beautiful grey/blue color, and the pads suddenly did not make any noise on track. They stayed well composed for another run or two afterwards, and for a week off the track.
- A week post-track: the rotors are all silver again and squeak like a raped monkey. It's horrendous and far, far too much for a daily driver. Again, I'm a noob, but I'm guessing the pads are not getting up to temp on the street and are just scraping off their bed layer, then being bitchy (noisy) about it.
- I tried to re-bed the pads...did about 15x 80-5mph stop cycles. Pads were quiet again for about three days.

My conclusion (again, as a n00b):

- Even if you are a noob or intermediate, the AP kit ventilates so well, that in moderate temps it's tough to even bed in the DS2500.
- After bed in, the DS2500 will still wear it's bed in layer off in a week and squeal like a mother

What does this mean to me?
For a DD, I don't recommend the DS2500 as a dual use pad. I could be doing something wrong (dear god, someone enlighten me! and I'll fix this post), but it just gets noisy over time. I think a set of street pads and then track pads are probably the way to go. I am amazed some folks are running other pads dual use...either those have much better noise levels...or my hearing is just too good.

Edit - I wonder if shims or grinding the edges of the DS2500 down to an angle is worthwhile?

The operating window for those pads start at about 70 degrees. Which is still streetable but as you have learned that layer will get eaten away very quick during daily driving. In fact I have been through two sets of hybrid street/track pads now and they are both noisy as well on the street.

Unfortunately you will just have to get yourself something more hard core for the track and something very weak for the street. Sucks. I know some of the hard core guys on here will tell you that if you bed your pads you can run race brakes on the street. Well that all depends your track vs. street time is. If you are at a track every weekend that pad layer will keep getting built up. If you are only tracking once a month or two. Its going to be going to be gone in a week of daily driving.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

If no need to worry about road salt and you care more about performance and plan on tracking go with the sprint kit; ~21lbs lighter unsprung mass compared to the Formula kit, cost is nearly $1000 less, and it has cheaper wear item replacement costs...

The only real advantage the Formula kit has over the Sprint kit is massive heat sink reserve from the disc mass and pad area which would be of benefit if you are making much more than stock power....if you are making close to stock power the weight penalty of the Formula Kit verses the Sprint kit is just really not worth it. Formula kit is chosen more for appearance (versus Sprint kit) unless there is a massive increase in the power level of the motor that could actually benefit more from having the Formula kit installed over the Sprint kit. The Formula kit will not slow the car down any better than the Sprint kit in nominal conditions and is more likely to have slightly increased braking distances over rough surfaces (due to unsprung mass penalty and the extra work the suspension has to do compared to the Sprint Kit)

Let me clarify by saying I was speaking to the 4 piston Formula kit, which is what I assume the inquiry was about. The 4 pot Formula kit actually drops ~5lbs per corner, ~10lbs off the nose total, so it's around the same weight penalty as stepping up to the Endurance kit. The rotor is significantly thinner than the Sprint or Endurance kits, so less heat mass. It is also only ~$400 more than the Sprint kit. I also believe you need to add pads to the Sprint kit, but Essex will give you a reduced price on them. Here's the 4 piston Formula kit (appears to be mis-labeled as "Factory" kit): http://www.essexparts.com/shop/compl...43mm-disc.html

I absolutely agree the Sprint kit is the way to go if it's not a 4 season vehicle or salt isn't an issue.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Let me clarify by saying I was speaking to the 4 piston Formula kit, which is what I assume the inquiry was about. The 4 pot Formula kit actually drops ~5lbs per corner, ~10lbs off the nose total, so it's around the same weight penalty as stepping up to the Endurance kit. The rotor is significantly thinner than the Sprint or Endurance kits, so less heat mass. It is also only ~$400 more than the Sprint kit. I also believe you need to add pads to the Sprint kit, but Essex will give you a reduced price on them. Here's the 4 piston Formula kit (appears to be mis-labeled as "Factory" kit): http://www.essexparts.com/shop/compl...43mm-disc.html

I absolutely agree the Sprint kit is the way to go if it's not a 4 season vehicle or salt isn't an issue.

Well thats the problem with the sprint kit. No way I am pulling off brakes during the winter.

[Vracer111]

Ah, didn't realize there was a 4-pot Formula kit for the fronts...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Well thats the problem with the sprint kit. No way I am pulling off brakes during the winter.

You COULD paint them. It'll just flake off and turn gross colors at worst.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by ICantAffordAnLFA

Anyone know the part no for ds2500s?

On the Endurance kit, you can run the taller 50mm radial depth pads:
Ferodo DS2500 FRP3116H

[JRitt]

Hi Guys,
For the track, I always recommend swapping to full race pads. If you like high bite, try one of these two compounds (these are the part numbers for the Sprint Kit, the Endurance Kit can run these or the taller radial depth version):
Ferodo DSUNO FRP3097Z
CL Brakes RC6, CL5051W39T20.0RC6

If you like a more moderate level of mu, try these:
Ferodo DS1.11 FRP3097W
CL Brakes RC6E, CL5051W39T20.0RC6E (the pricing is off on our site now...I'll fix it soon)

As Dezoris points out above, when running any type of aggressive pad cold, it's always going to be scraping the pad material off of the disc, and exposing the bare metal. That leads to noise every time. Have you guys seen the video I put together on how to swap between different types of pads? It explains a lot of what is going on in the discussion above. Take a look and it should be easier to understand vs. me writing a novel about it. :happy0180:

Edit2 - @JRitt, did you get my email about the Spiegler brake line issue?

I don't think so...email me here or call us at 704-824-6030 please. Thanks!

I have run ds2500 in a few cars before and they have always been completely silent. Why are they all of a sudden so noisy on these calipers and is there anything that can be done to quiten them down?