Aftermarket Intake + Bog Issues - Read Here

[2forme]

Originally Posted by R2RO

I had that jerk coming from the engine as soon as i installed the injen short ram.
I disconnected the MAF Sensor and started back up the engine.
Then Reconnected the MAF Sensor and started back up the car.
And after i ran the car for 4 mins under 2000rpm so the ECU could Accept the new intake and not jerk anymore.
I restarted the car 4 times and ran it and the check engine light came out, and the car stopped jerking and ran way better.

I've reset my ECU twice thus far and still get the problem. Glad it fixed yours though.

I really think these vanes are the answer. I remember reading something similar on the Celica forums a couple years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of a velocity stack was to improve the velocity of air entering a confined space (tube). That doesn't necessarily straighten the air out.

Companies shouldn't have to release 2 designs to accommodate tuned and stock setups. I looked at the stock intake and the vanes aren't all that thick. They wouldn't restrict any airflow. I know Cobb has a piece with both a velocity stack and vanes. On their website it's 195$ for the intake kit including this piece, but maybe I can find one used for cheaper to do some testing.

The unfortunate part is that, because we are so small in numbers, I doubt any resolution will occur. I also have the aFe Takeda intake on order. I'm hoping they included the vanes in their design, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm definitely going to be getting some seat time with @Visconti, as soon as the vendors stop hogging all his time for their turbo kits. We will get to the bottom of this. A 3D printer would make this so much easier to test haha

[thillskier]

My 350 Z also lost power and ran rough with the stock airbox and a short ram installed. Turbulence at MAF was reason I believe. (A while ago..

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Exactly!! The stock tune AND the Stage 1 tunes that are floating around are not properly setup to handle these intakes.

I even remember perrin addressing this in one of their threads, stating that their intake will require a tune if used...

The stock tune is what comes from Subaru.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I've reset my ECU twice thus far and still get the problem. Glad it fixed yours though.

I really think these vanes are the answer. I remember reading something similar on the Celica forums a couple years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of a velocity stack was to improve the velocity of air entering a confined space (tube). That doesn't necessarily straighten the air out.

Companies shouldn't have to release 2 designs to accommodate tuned and stock setups. I looked at the stock intake and the vanes aren't all that thick. They wouldn't restrict any airflow. I know Cobb has a piece with both a velocity stack and vanes. On their website it's 195$ for the intake kit including this piece, but maybe I can find one used for cheaper to do some testing.

The unfortunate part is that, because we are so small in numbers, I doubt any resolution will occur. I also have the aFe Takeda intake on order. I'm hoping they included the vanes in their design, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm definitely going to be getting some seat time with @Visconti, as soon as the vendors stop hogging all his time for their turbo kits. We will get to the bottom of this. A 3D printer would make this so much easier to test haha

You should really read the massive thread on Nasioc. Just get the car re-tuned for the intake once people know what they are doing.

Did you read about the guy that had this same problem with a tune and stock intake with the resonators taken out? Makes sense. It has to be an intake resonance problem that probably exists in every BRZ that runs without the stock resonators. Some setups will probably react more radically than others, like cars running the visconti tune. Even the subaru engineers said this car has issues with it. It's been said that's a reason for the torque dip that nobody can explain. When you took out the stock intake did you notice all the crazy helmhortz chambers?

Your best course of action might be to either wait for Visconti to get some time to really investigate the issue or contact TiC and see if they can help you out since they have fixed this issue in the past (with a tune).

[2forme]

Originally Posted by industrial

You should really read the massive thread on Nasioc. Just get the car re-tuned for the intake once people know what they are doing.

Did you read about the guy that had this same problem with a tune and stock intake with the resonators taken out? Makes sense. It has to be an intake resonance problem that probably exists in every BRZ that runs without the stock resonators. Some setups will probably react more radically than others, like cars running the visconti tune. Even the subaru engineers said this car has issues with it. It's been said that's a reason for the torque dip that nobody can explain. When you took out the stock intake did you notice all the crazy helmhortz chambers?

Your best course of action might be to either wait for Visconti to get some time to really investigate the issue or contact TiC and see if they can help you out since they have fixed this issue in the past (with a tune).

I'm going to. But you're missing the point completely. Injen and AIRAID sell intakes under the impression that they work without needing a tune. Neither explicitly say "You may need a tune in order for proper operation of the intake".

What about the people who are having issues with the intake, but don't want to spend 1000$ on tuning the car? The ECU cables are on backorder for at least a month. Are these people SOL?

We get it, you enjoy your intake and it actually works for you. Congrats. The people in this thread aren't so lucky. You're not exactly helping the cause by basically telling us to shut up and deal with it. I've already spent 250$ on the intake, and now I have to go and spend more money having @Visconti fix the issue with it? Try putting the shoe on the other foot.

I live in the city, and there's no point in using this product if I can't drive around where I live. Plain and simple.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I'm going to. But you're missing the point completely. Injen and AIRAID sell intakes under the impression that they work without needing a tune. Neither explicitly say "You may need a tune in order for proper operation of the intake".

What about the people who are having issues with the intake, but don't want to spend 1000$ on tuning the car? The ECU cables are on backorder for at least a month. Are these people SOL?

We get it, you enjoy your intake and it actually works for you. Congrats. The people in this thread aren't so lucky. You're not exactly helping the cause by basically telling us to shut up and deal with it. I've already spent 250$ on the intake, and now I have to go and spend more money having @Visconti fix the issue with it? Try putting the shoe on the other foot.

I live in the city, and there's no point in using this product if I can't drive around where I live. Plain and simple.

The intakes do seem to work fine without a tune on an otherwise stock car. The very nature of internet forums is that problems are overrepresented. If it was really widespread, people would be coming out of the woodwork. It does seem widespread that there is a problem with aftermarket intakes and off the shelf tunes...

I'm not sure why you seem so upset that an intake is causing your car to do weird things when added to an off the shelf tune which did not originally take into account that there would be a modified intake. Intakes have to exploit the stock computer to make more power. They do not run exactly the same as the stock intake. If they presented exactly the same air and information to the car, they wouldn't sound any different or make any power anywhere in the rpm range. They have to change something. Just because something is compatible with the stock tune doesn't mean it's exactly the same as the stock part. It's like running a mild piggyback tune on top of an ecu flash.

All this said, I understand alot of things about cars but dealing with intake resonances is above my head. It sucks that you have an issue. Subarus are pretty notorious for having issues with intakes. Have you looked at the treadstone air straighter? It should be easier to add than the Cobb one. it might fit in that gap between the MAF sensor and the velocity stack. I honestly don't think straightening the air will fix this issue but it's hard telling not knowing. Thanks for paving the way though. Someone has to do it!

[2forme]

If it were only my car, I wouldn't be saying much, but seeing as a few people with completely stock cars are having the same issue. That tells me the tune isn't necessarily to blame.

The MAFS is calibrated a certain way. It sends a variable voltage signal to the ECU to account for how much air it sees. An aftermarket tune can't touch this calibration. Aftermarket tunes deal mostly with the reference maps the ECU uses to control the engine. Fuel trim, ignition timing, variable valve timing, temperature correction, etc. Tunes from individual vendors like @Visconti take the stock maps and adjust the values to obtain more power that may have been conservatively tuned out from the factory.

The problem we are having is from 1000-2000 RPM. I doubt that specific RPM range of the maps were deviated from stock values by anything drastic enough to cause the issues we are seeing. They aren't a target for the power band. I mean how many times do you see 1000-2000 RPM while doing any kind of racing/aggressive driving? Visconti doesn't even show this range on his dynos.

The point of failure in this equation is the MAF reading. It's the only thing that could change the way the ECU could react enough to cause the problems we are seeing. Resonance is a factor and all, but not enough to cause a WOT motor to lose that much power. The manifold air pressure in my log was high enough to indicate that sufficient air was available to the motor.

But you are right in some regards. I'm certain a tune can fix it. However, it's a hard thing to swallow for people who just wanted to spend the 250$ on the intake without having to buy an ECU tuning kit just maintain day to day drivability.

I'm almost through my tank of e85. I will be filling up with 93, flashing to stock, and doing some more analysis. But I feel the result will be the same.

[Sportsguy83]

Sometimes there is a price to pay to be the pioneers testing products real time, daily driving on the street. Unfortunately, this is the price people are paying right now. I think anyone who is not willing to deal with these trials and tribulations should just return their aftermarket intake, wait for it to be resolved and buy after the solution is found.

I was eager to get an intake but after a while realized I need to wait for parts to be tested on the street in daily driver cars. I don't have time or patience to deal with this kind of stuff. Good luck to all that have the problem and I hope a solution is found very soon. If it were me, I would get my money back and wait. The "discount" price at which you guys were able to get the part IMHO is not worth the headaches.

[civicdrivr]

I love how some people ignore the stock tunes that are having these issues as well...

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian

No, Perrin has 2 intakes. One that does not require a tune and one that does. If you can't contribute to the thread, don't post.

Here's a link for you.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=perrin+intake

"What we have learned is we will be offering two intakes. One that runs very close to the stock MAF curve, this will suite the more common customer that doesn't need or want a tune, but would rather get some really cool sounds along with a bit of HP. The other intake will require an ECU retune, and is designed for the customer who wants the maximum HP from his car."


Can people please use a search function before claiming to know things?

you just proved my point

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by civicdrivr

I love how some people ignore the stock tunes that are having these issues as well...

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

People aren't.

Take a look at the Vote !

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

you just proved my point

Maybe in bizarro world. They have an intake that does not require a tune, however, they are making one designed specificallyfor a tune.

The airraid, injen, tanabe, etc... Are all similar to the first perrin intake that is designed to work with a stock, untuned vehicle.

Also, visconti stated his tune wil work perfectly with an intake designed to mimic the stock intake "10000000%".

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian

Maybe in bizarro world. They have an intake that does not require a tune, however, they are making one designed specificallyfor a tune.

The airraid, injen, tanabe, etc... Are all similar to the first perrin intake that is designed to work with a stock, untuned vehicle.

Also, visconti stated his tune wil work perfectly with an intake designed to mimic the stock intake "10000000%".

When I finish all my remote tunes I'll work on this.

I'll most likely purchase all the intakes on the market to do testing and make tunes - if needed

-John

[Memphis]

Originally Posted by 2forme

If it were only my car, I wouldn't be saying much, but seeing as a few people with completely stock cars are having the same issue. That tells me the tune isn't necessarily to blame.

The MAFS is calibrated a certain way. It sends a variable voltage signal to the ECU to account for how much air it sees. An aftermarket tune can't touch this calibration. Aftermarket tunes deal mostly with the reference maps the ECU uses to control the engine. Fuel trim, ignition timing, variable valve timing, temperature correction, etc. Tunes from individual vendors like @Visconti take the stock maps and adjust the values to obtain more power that may have been conservatively tuned out from the factory.

The problem we are having is from 1000-2000 RPM. I doubt that specific RPM range of the maps were deviated from stock values by anything drastic enough to cause the issues we are seeing. They aren't a target for the power band. I mean how many times do you see 1000-2000 RPM while doing any kind of racing/aggressive driving? Visconti doesn't even show this range on his dynos.

The point of failure in this equation is the MAF reading. It's the only thing that could change the way the ECU could react enough to cause the problems we are seeing. Resonance is a factor and all, but not enough to cause a WOT motor to lose that much power. The manifold air pressure in my log was high enough to indicate that sufficient air was available to the motor.

But you are right in some regards. I'm certain a tune can fix it. However, it's a hard thing to swallow for people who just wanted to spend the 250$ on the intake without having to buy an ECU tuning kit just maintain day to day drivability.

I'm almost through my tank of e85. I will be filling up with 93, flashing to stock, and doing some more analysis. But I feel the result will be the same.

Ok, I think its time to explain a bit better what Bimmerboy and Industrial are saying.

1. Stock tune + aftermarket intake = problems

2. Aftermarket intake + aftermarket tune THAT DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR AFTERMARKET INTAKE = problems.

3. To add on to what has already been said... aftermarket companies are not the end all be all of information and they too make mistakes. Just because they say a tune is not required does not mean that it wont.