12-09-2023, 07:57 PM | #715 | |||
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I think the key points would be that Starship and all components are suppose to be reusable, right, and they need to be from fuels that are producible on the moon/mars, right (more on that below)? I think if they used hyperbolic components on any part of the mission then those used components would have to be tossed or refurbished (Source). This NASA article talks about all the negative events that happened with the storage and handling of hypergolic propellants (at that time, old article), which might be a big aspect on the earth, moon and/or mars. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...0100042352.pdf Quote:
Mars Design Reference Mission 5.0 https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uplo...p-2009-566.pdf Quote:
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12-09-2023, 09:32 PM | #716 |
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I am SO yanking your chain.
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12-09-2023, 10:35 PM | #717 | |
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I'll concede that his understanding of physics, engineering principles, chemistry has likely improved, and in the beginning, it could have been much worse. It is reasonable to think they would improve over time, wherever they began, but he seems to have a comprehensive knowledge of his products at a deeper level than most CEOs, and I'll stand by that. It is hard to not come away with that conclusion after watching any number of videos of him discussing SpaceX components, as I shared. Well, he didn't say vacuum tubes; he said low pressure, but technically any significant pressure differential is a vacuum, so a tube with marginally lower pressure than atmospheric could be a vacuum, even if the differential isn't great. What he proposed wouldn't work in a perfect vacuum because he specifically said the design would take "high pressure air on the nose," so how could it be a perfect vacuum and generate high pressure on the nose? I don't know the feasibility of transferring the ram air effect on the nose through some type of electric air compressor (electric supercharger) and pumping it through legs/skis at high pressure to create a low resistance surface. I don't know the feasibility of pumping air out of a tube to match the 0.3 bar of pressure at flying altitudes. Like a home vacuum will do 0.2 bar, so I don't know what electric pumps could do to such a huge space. I don't know if there are any theoretical benefits to using air pressure for levitation versus maglev technology, as it relates to energy expenditure or load limits. I am not an engineer. What's your objection? The Boring company is likely the big plan for avoiding radiation on Mars by digging tunnels and underground structures. The dose radiation is not fatal though. The risk of cancer just goes up. It is generally agreed that an extra exposure of 1 Sv of radiation per year is associated with a 5% increase risk of cancer later in life, and they are saying that the exposure on mars would be around 0.25 Sv per year (more for the mission because astronauts get higher doses in space), but around 1 Sv in four years for easy math. If this was a linear relationship then 20 Sv would increase someone's risk of cancer by 100% or double their risk. Smoking increases ones risk of lung cancer by 15 to 30 fold, or 1,500% to 3,000%. Low dose of radiation over a longer time is worse than that same accumulative dose over a short time, so it may be hard to extrapolate the risks comparing it to say nuclear radiation exposure in high doses. There are processes in the body to repair tissues and damaged DNA, so exposure of time could up regulate repair mechanisms. We really don't have a definitive answer for the level of risk.
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12-10-2023, 01:55 AM | #718 |
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@Dadhawk
What I proposed doing (using hyperbolic propellants as an ignitor when I mentioned the H-bomb/Maserati examples) is discussed in detail in this video at 29:08, and apparently SpaceX uses those on its Merlin engines for Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy, but it doesn't use them on the Raptor engines. Instead, they use torch ignitors on the Raptor 1 engines for the pre burners and main engine, and on the Raptor 2 engines, they only use torch ignitors on the pre burners, which removes components that can fail, but makes startup a little more complicated. Maybe like Destin says, there will be an option for Astronauts to light a burner from the ground or throw some hypergolic "water" balloons into the engines from the lunar surface I'm hoping we will learn more in the future.
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12-10-2023, 02:03 AM | #719 |
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12-10-2023, 09:50 AM | #720 | ||
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Bottom line: It's a dumb idea that won't work. "Air bearings" in a vacuum (or "low pressure") tube, I mean it's laughable. Anyone who has any sense knows this. Which is why he reverted to fricking *wheels* to support the vehicle not long after that video. Somebody who wasn't afraid of being fired told him it was a stupid idea and wouldn't work. Regarding Mars mission, it's a death sentence to anyone who signs up. While I agree with the *idea* of space exploration by humans, the possible benefit has to be weighed against the *cost*. Throwing a few humans to Mars might be a neat thing to do but IMO it is not worth ruining and/or extinguishing their lives, no matter how many people would willingly sign up for it. |
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12-10-2023, 11:41 AM | #721 |
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I thought of that as well, as some level of safeguard, rather than having to deal with a couple of million lbs of it. The LEM only had 2,376Kg (5,238lbs) of fuel in it while Starship in its current configuration carries 1,179,340Kg (2.6M lbs) of fuel.
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12-10-2023, 01:40 PM | #722 | ||
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None of the many other points were troublesome. Since I was in the space thread, I took the opportunity to expound on something else. Quote:
It's like ethernet was in '80. Shouldn't like, Industry, be building tools for shareholder value? It's not even on their radar as a potential market. All the private PR budget is spent on walking around with new world conquerors' flags.
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12-10-2023, 09:38 PM | #723 | |
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The fastest train ever was a French train on wheels and not a Maglev train, so I don't know if wheels are limiting, so that could also be why he changed. I also don't know if you would need much air bearings (pressurized air out the surface of the sled legs). Air bearings work really well in industrial applications, but the air forced under the legs at speed could possibly create lift around the pod and keep it suspended in a tube. Round things shot through a tube tend to stay in the middle because the air circulates around it, but of course, there needs to be wheels when it stops, so there the pod doesn't drag/scrape--unless a pump creating like 60psi of pressure can be sustained. I don't know if creating a lower pressure environment is a terrible idea. It is the sole reason why planes fly so high. Are you saying it is laughable because keeping the tube lower pressure would be hard or prohibitively expensive or dangerous or all or what? A three year mission to mars wouldn't be a death sentence. Are you saying you know the risk of cancer is greater than say smoking tobacco? Around 1.3 billion smoke tobacco including more than 10% of the US population, and even more live around second hand smoke, so finding risk-tolerant people wouldn't be a problem. Several astronauts were smokers including Buzz Aldrin. Staying on mars would require tunnels, which is why there is The Boring Company. NASA discusses using lava tubes in its mission plan for long term housing in the initial years to avoid larger radiation doses. NASA will likely extend their limit on acceptable radiation levels like they did recently, so astronauts can go to Mars, but what really is going to happen is Optimus and other robots and autonomous vehicles will be sent to Mars to build tunnels, structures, mine materials, terraform the atmosphere and surface, and pave the way for humans to be able to survive on mars much easier. With that said, current age or age of death: -Gennady Padalka: alive at 65 -Yuri Malenchenko: alive at 61 -Sergei Krikalev: alive at 65 -Aleksandr Kaleri: alive at 67 -Sergei Avdeyev: alive at 67 -Oleg Kononenko: alive at 59 and is currently on the ISS. -Valeri Polyakov: death at 80 -Fyodor Yurchikhin: alive at 64 -Peggy is alive and is 63, and so on.
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12-11-2023, 01:56 AM | #724 |
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The LEM wasn’t reusable, and it was small, but things are definitely different. I get the desire to ditch excess, but a hypergolic propellant starter system or even the torch system seems like a worthwhile backup, but engineers and people far smarter are working on the job, so I’m assuming they know what they are doing.
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12-11-2023, 10:07 PM | #725 |
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12-13-2023, 12:15 AM | #726 |
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12-13-2023, 12:16 AM | #727 |
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12-13-2023, 12:23 AM | #728 |
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