Why I think Toyota has advantage so far vs Subaru

[shinjiro n]

I think in the end, we the owners are the winners.

[Trikle]

This is the stupidest post ive read on these entire forums since i joined, OP sounds like a huge Troll.

[rice_classic]

I think Toyota owns the controlling interest in FHI, so I think it's a moot point.

[kappaknight]

I never considered a Scion or Subaru before this car and I'm sure there are a number of us out there; both winners in my book.

[thermobox]

Originally Posted by Trikle

This is the stupidest post ive read on these entire forums since i joined, OP sounds like a huge Troll.

QFT.

This was supposed to be Toyota's baby the whole time. Suby was lucky to get anything at all.

[truenosan]

There wont ever be an AWD version of the BRZ, just look at where everything sits, it's impossible.

[Skyhound]

This is either a huge troll or insanely ignorant.

Look under the hood of your 86/FR-S/BRZ. Count all of the Subaru logos. Take the percentage of Subie parts put into the car and apply that percentage to how much money the FR-S, 86, AND BRZ has made. That is all Subaru's profit. What you don't realize about how a car is priced, is that every single component's price is factored into the price of the vehicle. The individual piece is bought from Subaru and then flipped in the cost of the whole car.

Now only the engineers and board members themselves at Fuji and Toyota know exactly how much of the car is Toyota and how much is Fuji. Though the entire project is meant to boost the business of both companies. The only purpose of selling an FR-S/86/BRZ as different models is to appeal to brand loyalty and differing markets. Both Subie and Toyota have insanely loyal customers and the badge will make a huge difference to them. The BRZ is styled and slightly tuned to appeal more to older customers who need/want all of the creature comforts and subtle styling. The FR-S/86 is agressively styled and tuned to appeal to the ricers and racers who want to act like they're the modern-day Takumi. Hence Toyota's obsession with 86 tribute badges.

Also, Subie's advertisements never focus on a singular model. They like to promote their entire brand as a whole. They prefer to let the consumers know that ANY Subaru is a good buy. After all, all that matters is that a Subaru gets sold not just the BRZ.

Edit:

Originally Posted by thermobox

This was supposed to be Toyota's baby the whole time. Suby was lucky to get anything at all.

LOLNOPE. If that were the case then it would be all Toyota badges underneath the hood. In the performance department, Toyota has been seriously lacking. The Lexus cars are at best "okay", even the LFA.

[SkullWorks]

why I think toyota has advantage so far....because TROLL and have no idea what iz going on and i want make my own post so i can haz cool too, and stuff, and yeah and um what is a Fuji?

[Trikle]

Fuji is an apple only grown underwater in Taiwan's ocean.

[vividracingcom]

HAHA FHI iz what???

Its not a battle, they are partners. Subaru gets to have it's hand in a widely selling car outside of their normal market. Opens up doors for a little company that is almost 20% owned by Toyota. All of the exisiting Subaru lines will benefit from this BRZ/FRS partnership.

[helloimgil]

Originally Posted by Trikle

Fuji is an apple only grown underwater in Taiwan's ocean.

Damn I want a Fuji apple now. /runs to supermarket

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I think Toyota owns the controlling interest in FHI, so I think it's a moot point.

I think it's around 28%. So while they receive dividends, Subaru is still in charge. It's just that Toyota is the largest shareholder outside Subaru, so they have the loudest voice.

As for the OP, Subaru wins either way. But the car, in total, is a success, no matter how the haters want to spin things. Both the FR-S and BRZ are hotly sought-after cars that do not last long on the dealership lots. If any money is slipping through Subaru's fingers, it would be due to their conservative estimates of sales and not producing enough BRZs.

But Subaru doesn't want a BRZ in every garage either. They want it to be an uncommon sight. It doesn't fit their business model all that well, so they aren't going to advertise the hell out of it. With sales as they currently are, Subaru is selling every BRZ made this year and into next with a minimum investment. There's no reason to advertise or use incentives.

Both companies are winners with this car, and they will be for a while to come.

[wu_dot_com]

Originally Posted by FRiSson

My impression to date is that Toyota has gained far more from the FR-Z (FR-S/BRZ/GT86) than Subaru. There are a few reasons for this.

1) Numbers: there are simply far more FR-S out there than BRZ. I think the ratio is about 1:3. Visibility and awareness goes to Toyota/Scion.

2) Price: The price advantage goes to Scion. Particularly with early practices of Subaru dealers.

3) Advertising: Toyota/Scion has done television ads of the FR-S. Has Subaru done anything. Again, Scion wins the awareness game.

4) Marketing Mix: The FR-S is an enormous boost for Scion's underwhelming offerings in the market. On the other hand, the BRZ fits uncomfortably with its all-wheel-drive heritage. In addition, Subaru already makes powerful, great handling cars. The BRZ doesn't break performance ground for them.

5) Differences: The differences between the FR-S and the BRZ are not large enough to offer much differentiation of product. I don't believe that the minor appearance differences, and the addition of alcantara, HIDs and Nav make much difference in the market.

If you read between the lines of the Toyota-Subaru relationship, one can infer that Subaru is the less happy of the partners. Because of this, Toyota is vastly outmarketing Subaru on the FR-Z.

Please understand I am not saying that people won't continue to value and respect the BRZ, just that most people will associate the car with Toyota/Scion.

My conclusion - unless Subaru significantly differentiates its BRZ soon (I.E. all turbo motors or AWD), the FR-S will dominate market perception of the product. Toyota/Scion will have gained the lion's share of the benefits, both in adding some sporty energy to Toyota's product line and by lifting up the Scion sub-brand.

On a purely speculative basis, I predict that given these factors, it is more likely that Toyota will continue to improve and support the FR-Z product. I just can't see Subaru putting a lot of energy into it. There isn't that much of a payoff for them. If someone can make an alternate argument about this - I am listening.

here is my counter argument

1) Numbers: though there are far more FRS's, if a person is interested, there are enough publication out there to let people know that Subaru also have a counterpart design called BRZ. in addition, most FRS owners will tell the prospective buyer about the BRZ and its difference.
since BRZ is the more rare of the two, there are rarity item ownership psychology in the play here. so to say just because FRS have more number thus they are winning may be a premature conclusion.

2) Price: The price advantage of scion is actually not really a price advantage at all when you compare the component cost if you were to have the same add on to the FRS vs base model BRZ. the BRZ actually offer tremendous values and warrantee that a FRS cant match when it comes to accessories. so if you think a $540 is a huge advantage, than you are in denial my friend. also, as far as shady dealer practice, shall i remind you the 35K FRS we've seen recently? or the 5K market adjusted value for the FRS. or my favorite, 1K tint job, 2K leather seat wrap. 500 racing stripes. 4K after market rims add on... in my eye. the price argument is a wash.

3) Advertising: yes for the general public, FRS have access to more audience. however, for those who actually take an interest in finding out more about this car, they will come across the BRZ at some point. thus the advising is also a wash at this point.

4) Marketing Mix: i personally consider this a major marketing flop for toyota. how many people wont by this car if its a scion? how many people wont buy this car if its a toyota? assuming if they can offer the same mono spec, same price. also how many people will still buy this car if its branded a toyota? how many people would still buy it as a toyota and they charge a higher toyota price with the same feature? on the other hand, this is a sports car coupe RWD which is none existence in the subaru lineup. if people want more HP, they go to STI, if they want something similar to a miata fun, they go to BRZ... it doesnt matter if subarus are known for their AWD turbo setup, majority of the review are positive from almost all creditable news media. so now people not only know Subaru knows their AWD and turbo, they also know subaru can do equally well in RWD small coupe... or better yet, Subaru knows their sports car.

5) Differences: the difference is not in the hardware, but rather what people perceive the owner based on their car. right, wrong, or indifferent, people acknowledge BRZ owner to be more establish, and mature. people perceive FRS owners to be young, racer, and immature. we can find it in forums, FB, tweeter, or local car meets.

i personally never get the hint that Subaru is less happy. they make money either way. they enjoy higher profit from selling their BRZ while making sustaining profit selling the FRS. whats not to love in this situation.

[TheRipler]

As far as advertising goes, why would Subaru need to advertise a car where new orders are backlogged for 6-9mo? I think the only reason we see Scion commercials for the FR-S is that they're out there sitting on lots. Not to say they are less desirable, but just an effect of the 3:1 production ratio.