Tesla "Full Self Driving" not capable of autonomous driving

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

lmao too I was thinking the same thing, but thinking the amount of Tesla sh1t talking haters is OFF THE CHARTS. Everyone's jumped on that lemming bandwagon


Like really, really embarrassing sh1t

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think you are taking the whole thing way too seriously.

Originally Posted by spike021

[IG]https:C/you-gotta-chill-yg.gif[/IMG]

Not at all. I was having a civil debate about a topic that comes off as another click-bait fake-news article, another bash on Tesla for something because it sells articles, but I do think it is a debate worth having, a misconception and fear that is unnecessary to have and falsely propagated, until MyHybrid went personal. I repeated what he said, but from the other perspective. No one said for him to chill out or that he is taking this way too seriously, but I'm not really surprised.

According to this article, 285,000 people bought FSD. There is 290 million cars in the US, so that is one in a thousand cars or 0.1%. FSD won't always be engaged, and the odds that you personally are involved in an incident where the system fails and a driver is also distracted makes this issue at this time a non-issue, especially because the driving record of the system when engaged is better than when it is not engaged. I don't drive past Teslas and veer away from them because I fear FSD. I'm more likely to be concerned about drunk/intoxicated drivers, people on their cell phones, cops catching me speeding, and people not seeing me or me not seeing people/motorcycles than I am about a Tesla in FSD mode. It's not even on my mind because it doesn't need to be.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/29/tesla...north-america/

[PulsarBeeerz]

Accurate Tesla emoji I believe they are made out of Samsung Notes...

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Not at all......It's not even on my mind because it doesn't need to be.

Fair enough. And I'll admit my snarky comment that started all this (this round) was just that a snarky comment, nothing really too serious behind it.

I have nothing against Tesla personally, and if they designed a car I found interesting externally and that had a decent (not Spartan) interior, I might actually buy one. The Model S is OK, but they are all getting long in the tooth from a design prospective.

I also don't fear them. I would give one a little room if I saw it was self-driving, but I would do that for other vehicles I didn't "trust", including heavy modders, Hellcats, Hell's Angels, and any Mustang turning a corner.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Does this mean tesla drivers actually need to stay awake? Those shuffleboard tourneys can be tiring. Maybe book a room and leave in the morning?

I mean they were going to have to let it charge all night anyway. Not a bug but a feature!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Accurate Tesla emoji I believe they are made out of Samsung Notes...

In Samsung's defense, they recalled 2.5 millions devices based on around a hundred complaints of fires and overheating, which is probably from fatties sitting on their phones, although they did use cheaper batteries they later admitted.

My mother in-law texts me the occasional article with an EV that caught on fire like the one below. I typically respond by sending several articles from the same day with ICEs that spontaneously caught on fire. Musk has said the rate of all types of Tesla fires are 0.01% with a national average of all types of cars of 0.08%, but most people don't consider a Ford as similar to a Samsung Galaxy Note when they think of car fires. Electronics vs oil/gasoline...I get why the analogy sticks better with BEVs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...uish-rcna68153

Ford Recalls 8000 New Shelby GT350, GT350R Mustang Over Engine Fire Risk
https://www.torquenews.com/106/ford-...gine-fire-risk

I'm thinking the future of batteries will be lithium-sulfur solid state batteries. Cheaper, more energy dense, low fire risk. I mean, the fire risk of lithium-ion batteries are very low, as is. There are billions of electronics using lithium-ion batteries in them, and spontaneous fires and traumatic fires are rare, even among BEVs involved in traffic accidents.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

In Samsung's defense, they recalled 2.5 millions devices based on around a hundred complaints of fires and overheating, which is probably from fatties sitting on their phones, although they did use cheaper batteries they later admitted.

My mother in-law texts me the occasional article with an EV that caught on fire like the one below. I typically respond by sending several articles from the same day with ICEs that spontaneously caught on fire. Musk has said the rate of all types of Tesla fires are 0.01% with a national average of all types of cars of 0.08%, but most people don't consider a Ford as similar to a Samsung Galaxy Note when they think of car fires. Electronics vs oil/gasoline...I get why the analogy sticks better with BEVs.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...uish-rcna68153

Ford Recalls 8000 New Shelby GT350, GT350R Mustang Over Engine Fire Risk
https://www.torquenews.com/106/ford-...gine-fire-risk

I'm thinking the future of batteries will be lithium-sulfur solid state batteries. Cheaper, more energy dense, low fire risk. I mean, the fire risk of lithium-ion batteries are very low, as is. There are billions of electronics using lithium-ion batteries in them, and spontaneous fires and traumatic fires are rare, even among BEVs involved in traffic accidents.

My thing with EV's and fire risk has never been about the risk vs. a conventional ICE, but the ability of some FD's to fight them. Once some of the chemistries are in thermal runaway it can take a lot of water to put them out. I sure that will change in the future.

I have been watching the sodium ion batteries. A lot of energy density there.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

My attempt at a brief response:

--Musk and Tesla can't simultaneously market it as FSD capable in all situations and at all times, as you suggest, and also continue to state that it would be ready in another year and then say a year later it would be ready in another year and so on. His critics can't lament him for failing to meet the deadlines he has set, while also stating that he sold this as level 5 autonomy from day one, so which is it?
--The statistics in the link I posted showed Autopilot and FSD programs were magnitudes safer than Teslas driven without the software enabled and much more than the general population (https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/11...-safety-report). It is entirely plausible that Autopilot and FSD require more engagement of the driver, which is why they are better, besides acting as multiple assistive eyes to stop the car and avoid impacts; look over your shoulder to turn in a responsible way, and you are still taking your eyes off the road in front of you and to one side of you.
--So people need to circumvent systems of security to get the car to do something they believe it is capable of doing without these systems of security? This is like circumventing the boost control on a car and cranking it up to 30psi and blowing the motor and blaming the manufacture. It makes zero sense. People aren't accidentally abusing the system. They are knowingly doing it fully informed in spite of what they know is right. This isn't Tesla's problem.

-I don't see why not. He continues to claim it's all going great and seems to be hoping people forget how he's been wrong for the last 5+years. If he actually said yeah guys this ain't working out, then it would be fine from a critical perspective. Just his customers and investors might not be happy.
-Arguably only being able to use autopilot in specific situations on dry sunny days shifts that metric a bit. I'd be interested to see how simple passive driver assists do in comparison. Disclaimer, I have not had time to read the article yet.
-I feel it is different based on conflicting messages from the CEO vs lawyers. "Oh they just put that crap in there because the lawyers made them do it. It's perfectly safe, I read it on Teslarati." No, it's not smart, but there are a lot of idiots with money out there.

[Capt Spaulding]

If you look closely at teslas safety numbers they smell like a cheat. They cherry pick the data and then make non/comparable comparisons. Lying with statistics is as old as statistics itself.

Sorry to say it Irace, but you are coming across as a seriously cool aide fueled Musk fanboi. Please slow down. I respect you. You’re better than this.

Elon Musk is a juvenile, narcissistic, selfish, rich megalomaniac. He’s not worth it. Whatever “it” is.

[soundman98]

ever notice everyone's either a 'tesla hater' or a 'tesla lover'?

why is there so much passion for a car company?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

My thing with EV's and fire risk has never been about the risk vs. a conventional ICE, but the ability of some FD's to fight them. Once some of the chemistries are in thermal runaway it can take a lot of water to put them out. I sure that will change in the future.

I have been watching the sodium ion batteries. A lot of energy density there.

Yeah, that is one reason why I could see the adoption of autonomous driving happening sooner rather than later. In the meantime, those sulfur or any solid state battery will likely help, but these things could be the solution. Push the EV in the container and hit it with water that recirculates so you aren't using a lot of water.

https://brandogsikring.dk/en/news/20...electric-cars/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

-I don't see why not. He continues to claim it's all going great and seems to be hoping people forget how he's been wrong for the last 5+years. If he actually said yeah guys this ain't working out, then it would be fine from a critical perspective. Just his customers and investors might not be happy.
-Arguably only being able to use autopilot in specific situations on dry sunny days shifts that metric a bit. I'd be interested to see how simple passive driver assists do in comparison. Disclaimer, I have not had time to read the article yet.
-I feel it is different based on conflicting messages from the CEO vs lawyers. "Oh they just put that crap in there because the lawyers made them do it. It's perfectly safe, I read it on Teslarati." No, it's not smart, but there are a lot of idiots with money out there.

--He pretty much said that exact thing, and when they removed radar, they announced that features would be removed temporarily, as they updated the algorithm/AI to perform radar-only-based functions. “Haha, FSD 9 beta is shipping soon, I swear! Generalized self-driving is a hard problem, as it requires solving a large part of real-world AI. I didn’t expect it to be so hard, but the difficulty is obvious in retrospect. Nothing has more degrees of freedom than reality.”--Elon Musk
Elon Musk admits self-driving is harder than he thought as Tesla owners troll him over missed deadlines
https://electrek.co/2021/07/05/elon-...sed-deadlines/
Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision
https://www.tesla.com/en_eu/support/...g-tesla-vision

--There could be some bias built into the statistics, but autopilot and FSD is available at night and in the rain. Who knows if people activate it more often or less often in those situations. Most accidents happen at intersections, changing lanes aggressively in blind spots or from driving too close; all of those situations are not likely to happen with Autopilot and FSD based on the grandma driving style of the systems.
Tesla’s radar-less Autopilot performance improves in heavy rain
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-visi...model-y-video/

-Well, it seems like Tesla wants people with >10k miles on FSD beta to be able to opt out of the steering wheel nannies because they have proved themselves responsible, and the camera will still be there (probably covers them more than alerts the driver). I don't know if that works for any driver of the car like maybe I drove it 5k miles and need the nannies, but my wife drove 5k miles in the car with FSD and is more responsible. Overall, Musk has always been more about personal freedoms and personal responsibilities. He wouldn't expect a Hellcat to have an accelerator limiter on the gas pedal and different than a car needs to monitor your driving. If I can turn off traction control and stability control then maybe people should be able to turn off the nannies.
Tesla plans to remove a Full Self-Driving Beta driver monitoring feature, regulators are concerned
https://electrek.co/2023/01/09/tesla...ors-concerned/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

If you look closely at teslas safety numbers they smell like a cheat. They cherry pick the data and then make non/comparable comparisons. Lying with statistics is as old as statistics itself.

Sorry to say it Irace, but you are coming across as a seriously cool aide fueled Musk fanboi. Please slow down. I respect you. You’re better than this.

Elon Musk is a juvenile, narcissistic, selfish, rich megalomaniac. He’s not worth it. Whatever “it” is.

At least I am using statistics, or even trying to make an argument. It seems like most of what everyone else is engaged in is baseless conjecture, fear mongering or making false statements. I get it. Most sports car owners don't like EVs and are looking for fault with them in any way possible, but the special pleading and baseless claims get old. I'm just trying to apply some reason to irrational arguments. If anyone can make a rational argument or provide some evidence then I am good to agree with it.

I've ridiculed Musk enough throughout this forum on more than one occasion on a number of different issues to escape the fanboy title, but if you want to throw that around, I could care less. I've stated that my go-to personal EV would be the Hyundai Ioniq 5 because I like the looks the most. The Honda Urban EV and Sports EV Concepts were also two EVs I would take over a Tesla any day of the week, purely for exterior design because that is almost chief in any car I choose. My wife would be good with the Audi E-Tron Q4 or Tesla Model Y/X, as I've also stated numerous times.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

ever notice everyone's either a 'tesla hater' or a 'tesla lover'?

why is there so much passion for a car company?

Ooooo deep question, but it's a good one.

Well, on a sports car forum, talking positively about BEVs is sacrilegious. BEVs are clearly the enemy of ICEs and manual, light-weight, sports cars--clearly. If people are so passionately against them then they come off as irrational Tesla haters, and people who defend Tesla/Musk must be blind Tesla fanboys. It is far easier to box people into one extreme category, so people can dismiss them when they get frustrated instead of arguing against them.

Tesla/Musk gets this more than other EVs because they were the ones who were disruptive to the ICE industry, and they were there to satisfy an EV thirst, so they gained a lot of loyal followers, which really irked people, just like people don't like the Apple fanboys.

For me, I've been sick, resting up and enjoy a good debate, so I have nothing but time right now. My lengthy and frequent responses comes off as defense of Tesla/Musk, so I was labeled a Tesla d1ckrider. My sarcastic retort was a mimic of his statement calling everyone haters, but I can point to a number of false and baseless statements made at this point, so if anything, and considering this forum, there are probably more legitimate Tesla/Musk/BEV haters here. It is what it is. I would just like us to focus on facts, which is where my first response and subsequent responses came from. Some people just like their echo chambers and want to vent their hate, so for that, I'm sorry if I'm spoiling the Musk-bashing.