Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

THANK YOU!
Although a sample size of one this is a data point that has been missing.
Your finings show exactly what I was afraid of in my earlier essay!
In all probability you had run the engine long enough to catch all the particles so none showed up during your oil change. Of course some would have made it through the whole system but eventually got caught.
To make a wild guess I would say that if your engine is still good now you are probably out of the woods.

Just to make sure i am understanding your theory, because there are small pieces of silicon in my oil filter, you are thinking that the smaller oil galleries, inside crank/rod journals, are NOT blocked thus from that angle, I should be ok. But this does not eliminate the possibility that my pick up is blocked......correct?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Just to make sure i am understanding your theory, because there are small pieces of silicon in my oil filter, you are thinking that the smaller oil galleries, inside crank/rod journals, are NOT blocked thus from that angle, I should be ok. But this does not eliminate the possibility that my pick up is blocked......correct?

Yes. Sort of.

The small pieces in your oil filter most certainly are an indication that they could have got throughout your engine. The fact that you found none in the oil change means that whatever was there has been picked up. That of course does not rule out the possibility that there is still a small piece stuck someplace but even in your light use I would think you would have had an issue by now if going to. All in all removing that one contributing factor out of the equation PROBABLY is good. I would of course still have the pickup checked since removing two factors is better!

If my thoughts are even remotely close to accurate I think that the small pieces can block the channels and galleries and then even a slight reduction in pressure or flow from a blocked pickup cause that particular part (usually a single bearing) to starve for oil.
This would be exacerbated by the heavy use on track which could force the small pieces even further into the channels while creating large swings in oil pressure.

Put it this way. If I was in your shoes I would still be cautious but knowing there was no more in the oil would be a relief.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes. Sort of.

The small pieces in your oil filter most certainly are an indication that they could have got throughout your engine. The fact that you found none in the oil change means that whatever was there has been picked up. That of course does not rule out the possibility that there is still a small piece stuck someplace but even in your light use I would think you would have had an issue by now if going to. All in all removing that one contributing factor out of the equation PROBABLY is good. I would of course still have the pickup checked since removing two factors is better!

If my thoughts are even remotely close to accurate I think that the small pieces can block the channels and galleries and then even a slight reduction in pressure or flow from a blocked pickup cause that particular part (usually a single bearing) to starve for oil.
This would be exacerbated by the heavy use on track which could force the small pieces even further into the channels while creating large swings in oil pressure.

Put it this way. If I was in your shoes I would still be cautious but knowing there was no more in the oil would be a relief.

Certainly plausible, and i hope your theory is correct for my own person self interest!

I am not going have my pick up checked, at least not yet. I am going to monitor via UOA and go from there. If it shows issues with bearings, i will decide at that time if i want to drop the pan, or full send until it blows. I only have a couple more months with the car this summer anyways. This will give me 6 winter months to see if suby will do anything about this.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Certainly plausible, and i hope your theory is correct for my own person self interest!

I am not going have my pick up checked, at least not yet. I am going to monitor via UOA and go from there. If it shows issues with bearings, i will decide at that time if i want to drop the pan, or full send until it blows. I only have a couple more months with the car this summer anyways. This will give me 6 winter months to see if suby will do anything about this.

That is a very reasonable plan. The oil analysis should show slightly elevated metals for the first couple of tests due to break in but if excessively or consistently high then it would be a good indicator of a problem.
I wouldn't put a lot of emphasis on higher silicon results though. Just the shear amount that stick's into the engine (even if completely fine) will give elevated results.

[Dake]

Originally Posted by *Axel

It is NOT the same thing. This is a semantical argument parrotted by social media sh*t stirrers that get off on the idea of gen 2 failures.

Bruh... it's effectively the same thing.

If you work on your car and reassemble it incorrectly, the dealer is allowed to not cover it.

In this case, you may not misassemble it, but you've broken the "seal" as it were. If you pull off your oil pan, the dealer can make the argument that anything inside the oil pan/in the pickup tube was placed there by you (either intentionally or accidentally). I'm not saying you would do this, I am saying there are people out there that will do this: break their car through inattention or ineptitude, then button it up and play dumb.

The singular job of service managers, much like insurance agents, is to make semantic arguments to avoid losing money, and they've been denying warranty claims for weaker reasons for decades.

As to the second part of your statement... not everything's a conspiracy.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Dake

Bruh... it's effectively the same thing.

If you work on your car and reassemble it incorrectly, the dealer is allowed to not cover it.

In this case, you may not misassemble it, but you've broken the "seal" as it were. If you pull off your oil pan, the dealer can make the argument that anything inside the oil pan/in the pickup tube was placed there by you (either intentionally or accidentally). I'm not saying you would do this, I am saying there are people out there that will do this: break their car through inattention or ineptitude, then button it up and play dumb.

The singular job of service managers, much like insurance agents, is to make semantic arguments to avoid losing money, and they've been denying warranty claims for weaker reasons for decades.

As to the second part of your statement... not everything's a conspiracy.

Exactly.

Why is that person so angry?

[Ghost of Akina]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Exactly.

Why is that person so angry?

Dude could be having a bad day… I mean who knows what someone goes through in their personal life before coming on here to post. It’s easy to vent and lash out online where your faceless right.

That being said we certainly don’t need the drama on the forums lol.
I swear there is one in every thread these days…

[mycrors7]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Common sense on social media? Good luck finding that.

Because the current issue at hand necessitates an urgency to check for problems that can and have caused catastrophic engine failure. There is plenty of evidence to counter that argument, that the customer/owner caused the failure simply by inspecting for that very problem of improperly applied sealant at the factory clogging the oil pickup screen.



It is NOT the same thing. This is a semantical argument parrotted by social media sh*t stirrers that get off on the idea of gen 2 failures.

let me break it down for you as clearly as it can possibly get with a worst case scenario.

you pull your oil pan off. clean RTV from the oil pickup. clean RTV from the mating surfaces of the oil pan and engine block. apply the "correct" amount of rtv. reinstall the oil pan. torque every bolt to spec.
you document everything with pictures and videos.

all seems good. bad luck hits and the motor ends up blowing regardless of your fix.

now let me put you in subaru's shoes.

Subaru notices your oil pan has been removed. you admit to have pulled the pan to repair a known common "issue". all good so far, no bad intentions or anything.
Subaru continues to inspect the motor and pulls the oil pan.

alas! they found more rtv in the oil pickup and subaru blames you for improper rtv application.

Now you need a video that very clearly shoes an exact 4mm bead of rtv being applied to one EXTREMELY clean oil pan, and you taking that same oil pan, mating it to an EXTREMELY clean engine block without any hiccups and torqueing every single bolt to spec with a calibrated torque wrench. then you need proof you waited 48 hours to let the sealant cure, before adding any oil to the engine.


at this point you will have to prove somehow it's 4mm around the entire pan, not just one measured area. Prove both mating surfaces were completely spotless and cleaned properly. prove you didnt have any hiccups during installing. prove the torque wrench is calibrated and is of high quality, accuracy and consistency and prove you waited 48 hours.

you can prove most of that via a video, but at this point, subaru knows you have the ability to do this job. They dont know if you redid the job at a later date without documentation and applied a different amount of rtv.

if you do somehow manage to prove every single detail and they deny it, now you have to lawyer up, spend more time and money fighting for a new motor.

if you leave everything be and let the motor do it's thing, youre getting that new motor under warranty, cause it was never touched.

Subaru doesn't wanna work for free and give you a free motor. theyre gonna try everything and anything to get out of it. This applies to every manufacturer and every business.

if there is even a slight chance of a good case where they save $10-$15k, they will do everything they can to save that money.


the correct way to go about this is to have your local subaru dealer do the job for you. If the engine does fail, it's on them. There's proof they did open up the motor and clean it, because techs nowadays usually document things pretty well. It's A LOT easier to fight for warranty when they are the only people to have ever touched an area of the motor where warranty is needed.


now all that being said:

there is still no concrete evidence that the RTV is the main cause of issue here. It can be a contributing factor, but i genuinely dont feel its the main cause of engine failure

[Dadhawk]

Great summary @mycrors7.

Of course, there is the whole thing of thinking the owner can do better once than can a mechanic (or robot) has done a dozen, or a hundred or a thousand times.

Bottom line, do it yourself just make sure you understand you are now the first line of repair (and blame).

[mycrors7]

I do have some bad news regarding the STI oil pan and warranty status:

According to my service advisor and his managers, because they STI oil pan does not have Subaru of America part number, in the event where a failure does occur and is linked to the oil pan, they would not cover it under warranty.

He said it would have to a part/part number that the dealer itself can look up and order

[Subito]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

I do have some bad news regarding the STI oil pan and warranty status:

According to my service advisor and his managers, because they STI oil pan does not have Subaru of America part number, in the event where a failure does occur and is linked to the oil pan, they would not cover it under warranty.

He said it would have to a part/part number that the dealer itself can look up and order

Interesting…good to know!

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Certainly plausible, and i hope your theory is correct for my own person self interest!

I am not going have my pick up checked, at least not yet. I am going to monitor via UOA and go from there. If it shows issues with bearings, i will decide at that time if i want to drop the pan, or full send until it blows. I only have a couple more months with the car this summer anyways. This will give me 6 winter months to see if suby will do anything about this.

i honestly hope you can keep it up. i've got 2 of the UOA kits sitting in my garage. the intent was to start dong exactly that with both my vehicles to track changes.

the kits are still sitting in my garage...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i honestly hope you can keep it up. i've got 2 of the UOA kits sitting in my garage. the intent was to start dong exactly that with both my vehicles to track changes.

the kits are still sitting in my garage...

He has a much greater incentive to keep on top of it!

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i honestly hope you can keep it up. i've got 2 of the UOA kits sitting in my garage. the intent was to start dong exactly that with both my vehicles to track changes.

the kits are still sitting in my garage...

Oh i will. I bought 2 UOA kits already just this past weekend with my amsoil order from my local dealer. I used it once on my old BRZ because i wanted to see if an oil cooler was needed for my Gen1 car which was casually tracked 2-3 times a year. I will do the same with this Gen2 car. Only thing is that this oil will only have a couple thousand kms on it before storage, likely drive around a couple more thousand kms next spring before i drain it and send it in. I want 4-5k kms on the oil. Or maybe if there is a problem, i might want to do shorter OCIs to catch potential problem earlier.....hummmm......