New BRZ vs Z

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

The M cars always had proper diffs IIRC. A proper diff vs using the rear brakes is likely not a concern for someone leasing a cheap BMW to make themselves look like they have money.

Until the F80’s E-diff they just had viscous diffs, never a real mechanical diff like a torsen. Not expecting a clutch type in a road car but a viscous diff is just not trying hard enough IMO.

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Until the F80’s E-diff they just had viscous diffs, never a real mechanical diff like a torsen. Not expecting a clutch type in a road car but a viscous diff is just not trying hard enough IMO.

That's totally wrong. The normal non-M E30s and E36s were offered with clutch type LSDs on some packages/trims.

Every single generation of M3 has had a clutch type LSD until the F80 and G80 gens. I know this, because I've rebuilt the clutches in them lol.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Kona61

That's totally wrong. The normal non-M E30s and E36s were offered with clutch type LSDs on some packages/trims.

Every single generation of M3 has had a clutch type LSD until the F80 and G80 gens. I know this, because I've rebuilt the clutches in them lol.

The M variable differential is a viscous unit. They also require rebuilds on the plates, so it’s very possible that’s what you’re referring to.

[stilesg57]

Standard Mustang diff has a (fairly weak /prone to wear from what I hear) clutch LSD, which is still better than BMW’s standard offering. Gotta spend $6,500 to get the performance package with the helical torsen.

Twin buyers are absolutely spoiled that a proper performance diff is standard on a sub-$30k car.

[wheelspeed]

Originally Posted by Kona61

That's totally wrong. The normal non-M E30s and E36s were offered with clutch type LSDs on some packages/trims.

Every single generation of M3 has had a clutch type LSD until the F80 and G80 gens. I know this, because I've rebuilt the clutches in them lol.

'80s BMWs all had nice diffs. At least my basic '84 325es, '86 325e, and '90 535 had them. I couldn't afford any expensive car in my 20's, so I bought those, all having from 100k - 200k miles on them before I bought them. I ran the '86 to over 300,000 miles. Never had mechanical problems with any of them. I really liked BMWs back then but nervous of them now.

The bean-counters got to them around the 2000s and they just cut out a lot of nice features from base cars.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Standard Mustang diff has a (fairly weak /prone to wear from what I hear) clutch LSD, which is still better than BMW’s standard offering. Gotta spend $6,500 to get the performance package with the helical torsen.

Twin buyers are absolutely spoiled that a proper performance diff is standard on a sub-$30k car.

What Mustang was this? My track pack GT had a Torsen.

There is a ton of misinformation in the last page or two.

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The M variable differential is a viscous unit. They also require rebuilds on the plates, so it’s very possible that’s what you’re referring to.

That’s still not correct. It’s a visco-lok. Not viscous.

I should clarify, I rebuilt a E36 M3 medium case diff with the factory 2-clutch LSD. Upgraded it to 3. I did however have a E92 M3 with the M-variable diff.

The Visco-lok builds pressure inside the diff and applies it to clutch packs to lock the diff up. A viscous just uses fluid shear force from my understanding.

[RZNT4R]

Originally Posted by Kona61

That’s still not correct. It’s a visco-lok. Not viscous.

I should clarify, I rebuild a E36 M3 medium case diff with the factory 2-clutch LSD. Upgraded it to 3. I did however have a E92 M3 with the M-variable diff.

The Visco-lok builds pressure inside the diff and applies it to clutch packs to lock the diff up. A viscous just uses fluid shear force from my understanding.

Yeah, a "viscous" differential uses slotted discs in a sheer-hardening fluid. If there isn't much difference in wheel speed the fluid isn't getting agitated enough so it behaves like a slightly resistive open diff, but as soon as the difference in wheel speed goes up the fluid gets agitated and binds the discs together

It's a good system, but if it's abused and the fluid overheated, well, I'm sure you can guess.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Kona61

That’s still not correct. It’s a visco-lok. Not viscous.

I should clarify, I rebuild a E36 M3 medium case diff with the factory 2-clutch LSD. Upgraded it to 3. I did however have a E92 M3 with the M-variable diff.

The Visco-lok builds pressure inside the diff and applies it to clutch packs to lock the diff up. A viscous just uses fluid shear force from my understanding.

Thanks for that clarification. Most info out there just says it’s viscous.

That’s a neat way to do it, just a shame they wear out quickly especially when they heat up.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

What Mustang was this? My track pack GT had a Torsen.

There is a ton of misinformation in the last page or two.

Exactly: the only way to get the torsen is in the Perf Pack that is $6,500. It’s supper crummy. They did away with the 1 and 2 level packages for 2021; now it’s just one option and it’s freakin’ $6,500.

If you don’t pay for the highway robbery Perf Pack with a torsen and 3.73s, you get a clutch-based LSD with 3.55 rear gears.

Believe me, this info is dead-nuts accurate. It’s playing a huge role in my purchase decision.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Thanks for that clarification. Most info out there just says it’s viscous.

That’s a neat way to do it, just a shame they wear out quickly especially when they heat up.

Just needs fresh fluid, that's why I was confused about your comment about rebuilding plates. Not how viscous diffs works.

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Exactly: the only way to get the torsen is in the Perf Pack that is $6,500. It’s supper crummy. They did away with the 1 and 2 level packages for 2021; now it’s just one option and it’s freakin’ $6,500.

If you don’t pay for the highway robbery Perf Pack with a torsen and 3.73s, you get a clutch-based LSD with 3.55 rear gears.

Believe me, this info is dead-nuts accurate. It’s playing a huge role in my purchase decision.

To be fair, it's not like the $6500 ONLY gets you the diff. It gets cooling upgrades, diff, wheel size/tire upgrades, brakes updgrades, etc.

This is why I find the internet so annoying. People intentionally misrepresent things for an agenda so they can complain about something they weren't going to buy anyway. Or they are so uninformed and present statements as facts that aren't. It's incredibly simple, don't find the value, don't buy the package.

"But but but, I want $20k in aftermarket upgrades for $995."

[stilesg57]

Dude I’ve been pretty open about the fact that I’m cross-shopping exactly two cars: a new Mustang or a new BRZ. No “intentional misrepresentation” going on here. I’m not setting up a straw man to knock down for the dopamine hit that is purchase-justification psychology. I have no problem pointing out the issues with each: the Mustang is expensive with pricey performance options for what it is and needs suspension work out of the box, while the BRZ is STILL painfully underpowered as a performance vehicle.

I don’t find the value in the perf package because I think the springs/rates and damper upgrades are weak, I hate the look and weight of the black PP wheels, and I don’t need a bigger radiator as the stock GT one is fine if you aren’t tracking it for hours on end in Phoenix. All I value in that package — beyond more than the change in my couch — are the brakes and the diff.

So yeah, I’m a little annoyed that I have to add an insane $6,500 option to the cost of the car to get those things and that’s the ONLY way to get them from the factory. Hence why I mentioned missing the old tiered packages.

I’m either getting a Mustang that’s significantly more expensive and/or needs a trip to the Steeda catalog or a BRZ that needs a warranty-killing $5k supercharger for it to still not feel half as sweet under my right foot as that glorious Coyote. Nothing disingenuous about pointing out all the nuances of this choice.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Dude I’ve been pretty open about the fact that I’m cross-shopping exactly two cars: a new Mustang or a new BRZ. No “intentional misrepresentation” going on here. I’m not setting up a straw man to knock down for the dopamine hit that is purchase-justification psychology. I have no problem pointing out the issues with each: the Mustang is expensive with pricey performance options for what it is and needs suspension work out of the box, while the BRZ is STILL painfully underpowered as a performance vehicle.

I don’t find the value in the perf package because I think the springs/rates and damper upgrades are weak, I hate the look and weight of the black PP wheels, and I don’t need a bigger radiator as the stock GT one is fine if you aren’t tracking it for hours on end in Phoenix. All I value in that package — beyond more than the change in my couch — are the brakes and the diff.

So yeah, I’m a little annoyed that I have to add an insane $6,500 option to the cost of the car to get those things and that’s the ONLY way to get them from the factory. Hence why I mentioned missing the old tiered packages.

I’m either getting a Mustang that’s significantly more expensive and/or needs a trip to the Steeda catalog or a BRZ that needs a warranty-killing $5k supercharger for it to still not feel half as sweet under my right foot as that glorious Coyote. Nothing disingenuous about pointing out all the nuances of this choice.

FWIW I also cross shopped mustangs, and my eventual decision was that the 'stang I really wanted had to be a Shelby or at least the Mach 1 (for the Tremec) just to avoid the terrible Getrag manual shifter on the base GT. Once I realized that, it was clear that either of those choices was way too expensive for me to afford any time soon. If I had a "money is no object" mustang opportunity ....it would be the GT350 hands down. What an insanely great car!

I realize you may have entirely different preferences (or finances lol) to me, so I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing my experience and thought process.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by Pete

FWIW I also cross shopped mustangs, and my eventual decision was that the 'stang I really wanted had to be a Shelby or at least the Mach 1 (for the Tremec) just to avoid the terrible Getrag manual shifter on the base GT. Once I realized that, it was clear that either of those choices was way too expensive for me to afford any time soon. If I had a "money is no object" mustang opportunity ....it would be the GT350 hands down. What an insanely great car!

I realize you may have entirely different preferences (or finances lol) to me, so I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing my experience and thought process.

I bet we have more similar prefs and budgets than you think

I’ve had the same thought: that I could be near $50k to get a Mustang GT where I want it and STILL have that MT82 gearbox But to get to the Tremec you’re into at least $55k all-in for a Mach 1. That’s a lot of dough for a car without several GT Premium niceties for DD’ing like heated/cooled leather seats and that doesn’t feel as well put together as the most of the German and Japanese options.

Shelby is absolutely special but I’m not paying the wild used prices for one to use as a DD given the Voodoo’s history. Crazy to me to think of putting $15k down on a car to still have near $1k/mon payments on a USED car. How do you afford winter wheels/tires or afford track days (not to mention any other hobbies) with that kind of fixed expense base?

That all pushes me back to the Twins + FI route, which has its own problems but is substantially cheaper (and will always be 1k lbs lighter). Given that this new Z will also quickly rocket the sticker to get that 20yo chassis to where I want it that doesn’t make it much of an option either.

Looking at a used M240i 6MT next week and if that doesn’t impress and Ford hasn’t opened up orders for the ‘22s yet I’m going to place my BRZ order.