The 2nd gen BRZ will have similar performance to…?

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

The automatic-only trans situation is the killer for me, or I’d get the new M240i no questions asked. I’d put up with the weight and questionable exterior styling, but the auto is a deal-breaker.

I can’t tell if I’m the weirdo or what because everyone seems to rave about the 2 series BMW’s ZF 8spd and I think it flat out stinks, and it’s not like I’m some spoiled kid with absurdly high standards (I’m shopping between a BRZ and a Mustang for godsakes).

Same here.

The ZF box is a VERY good automatic, but it's still an automatic.
My current daily 335i has a ZF 6HP with an aftermarket trans tune. It's great for an auto. But it isn't anywhere close to a manual.

Side note: BMW manuals are really bad compared to the BRZ/Miata/S2000. The clutch pedal is plastic and way too long. The engagement point is much too high off the floor, and engagement is inconsistent as hell with the Clutch Delay Valve in place. The shifter is vague and much too rubbery, and the gates are entirely too long. I had 3 manual BMWs before my BRZ, and I don't think I'd go back to them for a manual. My last BMW took a ton of effort to get the feel right and it STILL wasn't as good as the stock BRZ setup. I replaced the whole clutch pedal assembly, and machined my own shift lever and selector rod to get it as tight as possible.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The ZF box is a VERY good automatic, but it's still an automatic. My current daily 335i has a ZF 6HP with an aftermarket trans tune. It's great for an auto. But it isn't anywhere close to a manual.

Side note: BMW manuals are really bad compared to the BRZ/Miata/S2000. The clutch pedal is plastic and way too long. The engagement point is much too high off the floor, and engagement is inconsistent as hell with the Clutch Delay Valve in place. The shifter is vague and much too rubbery, and the gates are entirely too long. I had 3 manual BMWs before my BRZ, and I don't think I'd go back to them for a manual. My last BMW took a ton of effort to get the feel right and it STILL wasn't as good as the stock BRZ setup. I replaced the whole clutch pedal assembly, and machined my own shift lever and selector rod to get it as tight as possible.

Question for you. Is the "really bad" MT still better than the "really good" AT?

I ask because I've driven a lot of "really bad" MT over the years that would have been vastly improved by the equivalent of the Twin's AT transmission.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Question for you. Is the "really bad" MT still better than the the "really good" AT?

I ask because I've driven a lot of "really bad" MT over the years that would have been vastly approved by the equivalent of the Twin's AT transmission.

It depends on the car I'd say and it'll still be very subjective. That said, I believe on an E90 BMW like mine, the AT is a better fit for the car than the MT. I'm itching for another MT, but I don't think a BMW MT will scratch that itch.

If I could only have one car and it had to be the size of a small-medium sedan, I probably would take a manual BMW just to get the engagement back, but it's a compromise either way.

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Question for you. Is the "really bad" MT still better than the "really good" AT?

I ask because I've driven a lot of "really bad" MT over the years that would have been vastly improved by the equivalent of the Twin's AT transmission.

I think so. I’ve had several BMW manual cars from a 92 E36 325i to a 16 F80 M3. He isn’t wrong, they are rubbery, clutch can be a little odd, and they aren’t as good feeling as the S2K Miata or FRS. But, I 100% wish my Supra had one of those transmissions in it.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Same here.

The ZF box is a VERY good automatic, but it's still an automatic.
My current daily 335i has a ZF 6HP with an aftermarket trans tune. It's great for an auto. But it isn't anywhere close to a manual.

Side note: BMW manuals are really bad compared to the BRZ/Miata/S2000. The clutch pedal is plastic and way too long. The engagement point is much too high off the floor, and engagement is inconsistent as hell with the Clutch Delay Valve in place. The shifter is vague and much too rubbery, and the gates are entirely too long. I had 3 manual BMWs before my BRZ, and I don't think I'd go back to them for a manual. My last BMW took a ton of effort to get the feel right and it STILL wasn't as good as the stock BRZ setup. I replaced the whole clutch pedal assembly, and machined my own shift lever and selector rod to get it as tight as possible.

Ahh, so you've got a direct comparison too. Glad to hear I'm not completely crazy then.



Totally agree on the BMW MTs: that was exactly my experience with my old E46 ZHP (I think you had the same car too?). They're not in the league of the best manuals for sure, but still much better than any current auto IMO except for the Porsche PDK or the VW DSG.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Question for you. Is the "really bad" MT still better than the "really good" AT?

I ask because I've driven a lot of "really bad" MT over the years that would have been vastly improved by the equivalent of the Twin's AT transmission.

The "really bad" MT and the "really good" AT would both have to strongly live up to their billing to get any overlap in my own personal Venn diagram.


Honestly -- and I admittedly haven't driven THAT many manuals outside of cars I've personally owned -- I can't think of any manual trans in a sports/sporty/muscle-like car I've driven that would've been improved by the AT in, say, my wife's 2017 Mazda 3. That includes the early MT-82s in the Coyote S197 Mustangs (albeit barely).



I haven't driven one personally but I can't believe the Twins' AT is that much better than the Mazda's...so there's my answer.

[trollman]

Originally Posted by Pete

3519lbs is pretty porky, that's going to feel very different to drive than 2881. I'd bet the BMW is slightly quicker in straight line with the turbo but I'd much rather drive a twin.

True, I just brought it up cause made more sense as the 3rd option in a Jason Camissa’s comparo instead of gti. This way we’d be comparing Miata, brz, and 230i all with similar torque-to-weight…

[trollman]

Originally Posted by MisterGoober

…My guess is you won't see the average 2-Series priced below $40k. So $10k spread in the real world for an arguably slower car as it's significantly heavier.

You are quite right, after I figured out how to add the diff, the price was ≅42

Originally Posted by MisterGoober

Having said all that the M240i is the real price/performance bargain, at a smidge over $50k properly equipped you're getting essentially an AWD Supra with back seats.

Now that you mention it, 240 does make sense, although I’d be more interested in a rwd when it comes out

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

The "really bad" MT and the "really good" AT would both have to strongly live up to their billing to get any overlap in my own personal Venn diagram

I am 51 and have owned 5 cars (I drove, but didn’t “own” a 74 Cutlass Supreme in high school) only one automatic (95 Infiniti J30), and 4 manuals (85 Chevy Nova/Corolla - through law school, a 2001 S4, 2007 335i coupe, and now the 2020 BRZ).

Is the BRZ manual better than the BMW and S4 - marginally but not significantly IMHO. But what does it matter? The manual part is a deal breaker for me- if it isn’t manual, I’m not buying it - period.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Totally agree on the BMW MTs: that was exactly my experience with my old E46 ZHP (I think you had the same car too?).

Haha you’re not the only one. The MT in my 2007 E92 335i was marginally better than the one in my 2003 ZHP, but both were absolutely left in the dust by the BRZ’s setup. Both my BMWs and my Audi needed a short shift setup to be satisfactory to my wants, but the stock BRZ setup was better than them.

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

Is the BRZ manual better than the BMW and S4 - marginally but not significantly IMHO. But what does it matter? The manual part is a deal breaker for me- if it isn’t manual, I’m not buying it - period.

Interesting. The lack of feedback on the German setups is unfortunate, but I agree it’s not a dealbreaker. A/T in a sporty car is a dealbreaker for me personally.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The MT in my 2007 E92 335i was marginally better than the one in my 2003 ZHP, but both were absolutely left in the dust by the BRZ’s setup.

So we had the same BMW? Mine was Montego Blue with grey interior. Really, really liked that car - particularly the turbo boost you got (even if you were in the wrong gear/RPM)

As for the manuals, first, I assume you are talking about AFTER you removed the clutch return spring from the BRZ and changed the fluid. The clutch return spring absolutely was a disaster in my opinion, so much better now that it is gone. I agree that the feel on the BRZ is better, but I will say that it still has some clunky shifts that I don't recall on either of the German vehicles, particularly during hard shifting.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

So we had the same BMW? Mine was Montego Blue with grey interior. Really, really liked that car - particularly the turbo boost you got (even if you were in the wrong gear/RPM)

As for the manuals, first, I assume you are talking about AFTER you removed the clutch return spring from the BRZ and changed the fluid. The clutch return spring absolutely was a disaster in my opinion, so much better now that it is gone. I agree that the feel on the BRZ is better, but I will say that it still has some clunky shifts that I don't recall on either of the German vehicles, particularly during hard shifting.

Yep, same car!

I removed the spring but let the fluid alone. I did lower the pedal to remove the dead zone at the bottom too. The fact that it’s adjustable it’s just amazing, coming from German cars.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Ahh, so you've got a direct comparison too. Glad to hear I'm not completely crazy then.



Totally agree on the BMW MTs: that was exactly my experience with my old E46 ZHP (I think you had the same car too?). They're not in the league of the best manuals for sure, but still much better than any current auto IMO except for the Porsche PDK or the VW DSG.








The "really bad" MT and the "really good" AT would both have to strongly live up to their billing to get any overlap in my own personal Venn diagram.


Honestly -- and I admittedly haven't driven THAT many manuals outside of cars I've personally owned -- I can't think of any manual trans in a sports/sporty/muscle-like car I've driven that would've been improved by the AT in, say, my wife's 2017 Mazda 3. That includes the early MT-82s in the Coyote S197 Mustangs (albeit barely).



I haven't driven one personally but I can't believe the Twins' AT is that much better than the Mazda's...so there's my answer.

Yeah, the DCT in my 135 was great.............when you were beating on the car, just around town? Horrifically frustrating.

[Kona61]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Yeah, the DCT in my 135 was great.............when you were beating on the car, just around town? Horrifically frustrating.

I’d forgotten about those… my mother had a early 135i with that trans and sometimes if you didn’t fully stop and stepped on the gas, the car would just sit there, no big deal except you’re trying to pull out onto traffic and are now just sitting in the road.

Didn’t happen often but was frightening when it did.

[Midnightsky]

Originally Posted by Kona61

I’d forgotten about those… my mother had a early 135i with that trans and sometimes if you didn’t fully stop and stepped on the gas, the car would just sit there, no big deal except you’re trying to pull out onto traffic and are now just sitting in the road.

Didn’t happen often but was frightening when it did.

^^^^This is why MT always forever💪