08-27-2021, 11:11 AM | #43 | |
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08-27-2021, 11:18 AM | #44 | |
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I researched this long and hard back when I bought my car, and came across his video where he goes on and on about how you MUST run a cooler, "you may hate me, but there's no way around this" or words to that effect, but never once says *why*. "Temp issues with the 1st gen" are IMO ~85% in the minds of those who see what they think are "big" numbers. The other ~15% being that 0w20 oil maybe isn't appropriate for ~272F oil temperatures at the track... So run known-good 30 (or 40) weight synthetic. |
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08-27-2021, 11:20 AM | #45 | |
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I am agreeing with you that the new one should have slightly better cooling - I was more directing the comments to everyone thinking that this new one "failed" at addressing the oil temps. That is categorically incorrect - we got a coolant-to-oil heat exchange going. That will shave off the peaks at the very least.
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08-27-2021, 12:50 PM | #46 | ||
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1) I (or AFAIK no one else on this forum) am not a Subaru engine designer. 2) Correlation does not imply causation. Facts: 1) Subaru has an oil-coolant heat exchanger in its parts bin that has been used on multiple production cars from the factory. 2) Turbo charged engines are known to produce more heat than NA engines. 3) There is a correlation between Subaru's use of the oil - coolant heat exchanger and the presence of a factory installed turbo charger. I, for one, draw the conclusion that it is primarily for cooling the oil, and the secondary benefit is heating the oil. The overall effect is more stable oil temperatures. I am probably biased; I installed the Forrester unit on my FRS for occasional track use as "cheap insurance". Necessary? Probably not. But it fits my philosophy of modest, inexpensive modifications that make me more confident in my car's performance on the track without significantly reducing its utility as a daily driver.
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08-27-2021, 04:44 PM | #47 |
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This thread has devolved to ludicrous semantics lol (and with regard to the oil cooling - you can OVERCOOL your oil but you can also underhydrate for marathons - your counterpoint the equivalent of googling the opposite and slapping the first link to me as if it proves something. It doesn't). Ranting and raving about how it's not needed does no one favors and trying to convince others is dangerous for the longevity of the platform, especially now that the first gen is out of production.
Oil temperature is correlated to oil delivery and pressure. They cannot be considered mutually exclusive when accounting for engine protection. Running heavier weight oil doesn't stop the empirical pressure readings (google it and the dozens of threads here that have hard data) where despite using heavier oil, pressures still drop off like a fucking rock past 230F, not to mention that the majority of oils are (for simplicity's sake, bringing tribology into this would be a can of worms no one wants) rated up to 100c and then everything after that is hard to get a gauge on. Run an oil cooler unless you want to gamble with your car, but don't tell people it's not necessary because it's not going to hurt someone to put an oil cooler on a car versus running without one. It's better on the engine than merely swapping to heavier and heavier weights which retains heat even better which will result in subsequently higher temperatures, lower pressures, putting the oil even more out of its subsequently designed operating temperatures. This really isn't fucking rocket science. I'll take the word of people who have put actual money into producing safe to operate vehicles than one person's ranting anecdotes. Saying "it's not needed" when we have many, many other sources that are a lot more professional saying otherwise is really dumb. And on that note, I wonder why many performance and race vehicles near ubiquitously use oil coolers despite "oil" being ""designed"" for 300f temps. The forester oil cooler is a welcome addition to the stock vehicle and is something that should have been part of the 1st gen to begin with. It won't protect from track conditions but it'll let you rip more than one redline before spiking oil temperatures severely. |
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08-27-2021, 04:55 PM | #48 | |
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08-27-2021, 05:40 PM | #49 | |
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08-27-2021, 05:46 PM | #50 | ||||||||||
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Proves nothing BUT is a good *analogy* in that yeah, you don't want oil to get too hot but IMO you're not doing noobs any favors by telling them they *MUST* get an oil cooler as I would bet they are more likely to have negative consequences from that than running appropriate oil at 272F. Quote:
But even aside from that, we do have at least some evidence that running the same oil with and without an oil cooler results in the *same oil pressure*. I.e. the pressure drop due to the oil cooler is about what it is due to 275F oil being hotter than 250F oil: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820 Quote:
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I've never seen oil temps "spike" driving my car at the track fwiw... Last edited by ZDan; 08-27-2021 at 08:31 PM. |
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08-27-2021, 07:29 PM | #51 | |
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Although I do agree that the oil can hit 275 and be “okay” I’d probably assume most owners of a new $30k car would prefer keeping oil temps much closer to 220-240 range. |
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08-27-2021, 07:57 PM | #52 |
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What most owners think is not relevant. Most owners know jack shite about what safe oil or coolant temperatures are. The idea that operational oil and coolant temps should be driven by what owners (who have no idea) expect or "prefer" is absurd...
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08-27-2021, 08:31 PM | #53 | |
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The real mystery is at what pressure will your bearings get scorched from lack of the proper hydrodynamic wedge that oil provides. The answer is that it is not a constant, you're chasing a moving target. That is why the OEM gives a guideline goal for oil pressure. @Dezoris may come off as a prick, but guess what? He has put in a lot of work to push knowledge specific to this platform forward, he deserves to be proud and speak with authority. I may not agree with everything he (or anyone) says, but to completely miss the "why" of his study is nuts. Don't be so hard headed that you can't accept that "recommending" an oil cooler comes from a place of care and concern, rather than a self-righteous conspiracy theorist rhetoric. I'm also in the camp of "Don't get an oil cooler until you can provide data to support it". But the data between oil TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE is well known. If you lose your hydrodynamic wedge on any metal/metal, it's causing potentially significant wear. That happens with oil pressure being too low at a given load/rpm.
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08-27-2021, 08:31 PM | #54 |
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I'm not going to address every point here because we can devolve to endless minutia but at this point there's nothing more I can say without rinsing and repeating. You can ignore everything everyone's provided reasonable and sound evidence - and I guarantee that the collection of people's anecdotes are far more reliable than anything you're spouting when your anecdotes don't hold a shred of empricism compared to anything else, and seem more like chasing clout than wanting to share information for the sake of the community.
This thread is derailed to shit and everyone's pointed out more or less everything within arm's reach of the platform citing how oil cooling is more or less necessary from aftermarket and otherwise and that running without it is nothing more than a gamble. (Which I've said at least twice in my posts by now, so there) While we're talking about track day oil temperatures the FA24 uses straight connecting rods instead of the offset ones of the FA20, the japanese site I saw cited the reason for this being lubrication problems. Now I don't know if they changed the oil galleys from the FA20 but we might certainly see less issues with bearing failures with a symmetrical rod design, where oil cooling may be less necessary to maintain adequate lubrication from the system. That's what I'm most interested in seeing as that's sort of the biggest difference in the engine off the top of my head (barring displacement), but in my research I haven't really found much reasoning behind using offset connecting rods to begin with. I'm not really worried about the car's longevity on track however, simply because this platform already has vested banks of knowledge regarding how to protect it that I'm certain a lot of it will carry over. 600$ for an oil cooler isn't exactly a bad investment to guarantee more or less safe power production near indefinitely, aside other standard track consumables. Savagegeese might overblow some things but I think that his original videos were well warranted and highlighted clear issues clearly (with pressure and temp readings and UOAs which are fairly empirical.) Just my 2c, I think the next gen engine will be plenty robust and it won't be anything to worry about with only one small modification. |
08-27-2021, 08:54 PM | #55 | ||||
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https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820 It looks to me like the oil pressure drop from the cooler is the same as the oil pressure drop from the no-cooler setup running hotter. Quote:
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Last edited by ZDan; 08-27-2021 at 09:28 PM. |
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08-27-2021, 09:18 PM | #56 | |
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Why doesn't Gspeed state what oil cooler they were using? Where it was mounted? What orientation the cooler is in? All of that data is critical and I'm not seeing it. You are entitled to your opinion about him (savagegeese, who is indeed @Dezoris ) and his own opinions
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