|
Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for! |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
03-07-2020, 08:43 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 1,808
Thanked 790 Times in 611 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
LOL -4* camber.. My tires are already getting wasted running barely over -2* front. Tho the OE front bushing are probably not helping out in that department, so hopefully that improves after I press in some new ones. Then maybe I'll feel more comfortable with adding back some negative camber.
@strat61caster You've never considered upping the front spring? I would think increasing the front would have similar effect as a big bar and retain some more independent articulation with a smaller bar. I suppose its nice to be able to dial in the roll stiffness track or roadside with adjustable bars. That's definite advantage.
__________________
Intent > Content
cowardice is the mother of cruelty. |
03-07-2020, 08:51 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 1,808
Thanked 790 Times in 611 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
__________________
Intent > Content
cowardice is the mother of cruelty. |
|
03-08-2020, 12:15 AM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: 2013 Blue Subaru BRZ. 6 Spd manual
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 206
Thanks: 138
Thanked 155 Times in 94 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Oohhh I don’t personally recommend removing the rear bar! I personally upped the rear to the ‘17MY 15mm bar because I prefer how it feels. My only intention in the above was to imply that the sways add significantly less spring to the rear than front, so you can get away with it just fine if rear grip is the issue. In these cars, if you’re cornering, you’re on the bumps, period. Being on a stiffer rear bar isn’t going to keep you off the bump stops, but it will have other benefits. For me those benefits are appreciated. If I had a proper rear clutch pack rear dif, I’d go back to the softer 17MY rear springs and up the rear sway bar further, personally. My application is that of a daily driver in Los Angeles though, so I’m a bit compromised in what I’ll put up with. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
03-08-2020, 09:12 AM | #46 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ Premium MT
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 18 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
I had 9k springs on all corners, and was using the stock '13 front bar (18mm), and a Mann Engineering rear bar on the medium setting. I was trying to use more spring and less bar, because I wanted the independent articulation.
I couldn't get my settings right to dial out understeer in long sweepers, though. There could be multiple causes, like damping curve in the struts' valving, or alignment. In autocross, I didn't like the understeer, but on track it felt a little better. I'm going to a more proven setup for autocross in 2020 with a softer front spring and stiffer front bar. I had -3.8 camber last year, but I'm changing to over -4 this year. Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk |
The Following User Says Thank You to sifl For This Useful Post: | SuperTom (03-08-2020) |
03-08-2020, 10:00 AM | #47 |
-
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,376
Thanks: 13,768
Thanked 9,495 Times in 5,008 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
@solidONE yes, I've run from 325#-500# in the front and am likely ordering another pair of springs to for more experimentation.
I don't think I use that big of a bar, up until last weekend I was on a 20mm and just switched to karcepts bar set to a similar stiffness as the 20mm on stiff which is about middle of the new bar. My point was just because the OE sent the car out with a certain bar stiffness differential doesn't mean it's the best when you start messing with the car. |
03-08-2020, 11:46 AM | #48 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 1,808
Thanked 790 Times in 611 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
If your reasoning is to retain stock height for clearance, going to a flex-z or ST or Kw entry level coils set at stock height, I can pretty much guarantee you will have a better ride than stock. The reason why I say this is because I've tried all three i mentioned above and they all ride better than stock.. lol Quote:
Just for shits-n-giggles.. and 'science'. Have you tried running it without a front bar? You probably dont need or want as much articulation in the front as the back, but just to see what happens. Quote:
__________________
Intent > Content
cowardice is the mother of cruelty. Last edited by solidONE; 03-08-2020 at 12:13 PM. |
|||
03-08-2020, 02:52 PM | #49 |
-
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,376
Thanks: 13,768
Thanked 9,495 Times in 5,008 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
Not really, playing with double adjustables you just throw comp at it until it gets harsh, if it lets you get that far, rebound has bigger impacts on dynamics you can feel.
|
03-08-2020, 03:21 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: 2013 Blue Subaru BRZ. 6 Spd manual
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 206
Thanks: 138
Thanked 155 Times in 94 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Also, let me clarify that I wouldn't recommend removing the rear bar on OEM springs. To that degree I totally agree with you that more spring in the rear sans a SW would work just fine. It would also help the rear Torsen by keeping the rear independence. |
|
03-08-2020, 05:33 PM | #51 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Drives: Subaru BRZ
Location: Piacenza, Italy
Posts: 42
Thanks: 16
Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
I would like to add my experiences with different spring rates and different sway bars configurations
1° setup Tein Flex Z with stock sway bars (MY14) Alignment: Camber -3F -2.1R Toe 0°F 0.1°R Car was easy to drive and quite fast but a little pushy, not very fun 2° setup Same as before but with 8k rear springs Car was very fun to drive with some oversteer during turn-in and in long radius turn, perfectly balanced on gas in short radius turn, a blast to drive on street (mountain pass and so on). Car felt faster than before but tire wear in the back was a problem, this setup need more static camber 3° setup Same as before but without rear sway bar The rear is very slow and heavy during turn-in, balance in long radius turn and especially applying some gas is wonderful, very good traction, tire wear is perfect, but the overall feeling is that the car is slower than before Next step: reconnect swaybar and add some rear lca to add some camber |
03-08-2020, 07:44 PM | #52 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ Premium MT
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 18 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
For sure, solidONE, driver has an impact. Sometimes it's me causing the understeer issue.
One of my friends wanted me to try disconnecting the front sway bar when I had the 9k springs, but I didn't. It seemed too extreme. Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk |
The Following User Says Thank You to sifl For This Useful Post: | solidONE (03-09-2020) |
03-09-2020, 03:39 AM | #53 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Drives: FR-S Whiteout
Location: California
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 1,808
Thanked 790 Times in 611 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Nobody suggested that you recommend removing the rear bar. lol If anything I recommend people who have not tried unhooking the rear sway to experiment with this.. just not on stock springs. Its free to try. Unless you dont have tools then it cost whatever the cost of a 14mm wrench to remove the nut costs.
__________________
Intent > Content
cowardice is the mother of cruelty. |
|
03-09-2020, 09:20 AM | #54 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Drives: 2016 Scion FRS / Chevy Colorado
Location: Ohio
Posts: 658
Thanks: 51
Thanked 564 Times in 314 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
There becomes a point where calculator and spreadsheets only take you so far, then there is actual experience. You can't mimic a front bar with springs though, it's not a complete translation. Develop the car with springs in mind to tackle pitch and dive, ride height, how the car deals with single and multi-wheel bumps. From there, bars are the answer to deal with isolating roll stiffness. The one thing springs doesn't offer you is the tuning ability run to run to dynamically change the behavior of the car. Swapping bar holes I can make a pretty drastic behavioral change to how my car reacts on a specific surface depending on multiple variables. Personally, I've always liked softer springs because I like to run lots of shock. I've always gone with the rule of thumb that you want to achieve the softest spring package paired with bar whenever possible. IMO - if you're trying to combat body roll with stiffer springs you're doing it wrong. I posted this video elsewhere yesterday on FB but I think it's pretty helpful here: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj1OJr2NwzE[/ame] How would my car react if I had say #100 more spring? PS - I run -4.2* Camber and my tire wear is very well. If you're roasting tires with less camber that should identify setup issues for you immediately
__________________
Kyle H. - #89 STX
|
|
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to M0nk3y For This Useful Post: | DocWalt (03-10-2020), Icecreamtruk (03-09-2020), maregt (03-09-2020), new2subaru (03-09-2020), solidONE (03-09-2020), strat61caster (03-09-2020), venturaII (03-09-2020) |
03-09-2020, 09:53 AM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Drives: Track preped NA FRS
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 987
Thanks: 1,056
Thanked 681 Times in 405 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
@solidONE and for everyone else who wanted to know for "shits and gigles"
I did try a bunch of different setups concerning spring rates and sway bars, including disconnecting the bar up front. It was not a good time. The car felt a lot softer up front and a bit better on turn in, but it would wash out hard mid corner and it was actually completely lifting the rear inside wheels on turns. Basically this means it was much slower, because you couldnt get the power down until after the apex when you started to unwind the wheel and the rear started to gain some load for the inside wheel to come down. It was not a very pleasant experience, maybe it will work on the rain or on very shitty tires, but on a proper setup with grippy tires, no front bar is a big no no for me. At the same time, I do know of someone who runs no front bar and is very quick as well, but his spring rates are a bit out of whack (I think 10k up front and 6k or 8k on the rear). So in his case, it works because of the spring rates, and not the other way around. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Icecreamtruk For This Useful Post: | solidONE (03-09-2020) |
03-09-2020, 10:29 AM | #56 | |
Only users lose drugs.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Drives: All the time
Location: Shrewsbury upon Worcestershire
Posts: 1,827
Thanks: 884
Thanked 1,073 Times in 679 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
__________________
"To know a thing well, know it's limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen." Amtal Rule
|
|
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
WTB Sway Bars | MrAsh2222 | Canada Classifieds | 4 | 03-24-2019 03:19 PM |
FS: Cusco Strut Bars and Power Braces, Hotchkis Sway bars | armyoffoo | Brakes, Suspension, Chassis | 10 | 08-08-2018 08:28 AM |
WTB F&R sway bars | blkmamba | Canada Classifieds | 1 | 06-04-2017 02:15 PM |
FR-S stock sway bars compared to TRD bars | babydriver | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 3 | 12-01-2014 09:12 PM |
FR-S/BRZ SWAY BARS & STRUT BARS @ NINJA AUTOSPORTS!!! | NJA | Brakes, Suspension, Chassis | 18 | 04-07-2013 06:00 PM |