UHP Tire Breakaway Characteristics

[FlamingRectumSyndrome]

Originally Posted by KendallH

I went with Conti Extreme DW. Very quiet and grippy with excellent wet weather traction. I wanted the MPSS originally but I found the Contis were a better value. They are wearing very well too. I've never been a fan of Bridgestones. They seem to feather much quicker than other tires and are very noisy.

This review confirms your assessment. It actually makes the Contis seem like the best DD tire, and specifically mentions that "Grip fell off predictably, and holding the edge of performance was easy. Recovery from a slide was also quick work", which pretty well addresses my concern about breakaway. Hmmm...

[venturaII]

I autocrossed a few times on Conti Extreme DW (different car) and was quite pleased with how they worked. Obviously not on the cutting edge of grip with a 340 treadwear rating, but honestly they felt stickier than that. The wet performance is a real nice bonus, if you get that sort of weather.

[8R6]

i havent had michelin pss on my frs, but i did have a set on my previous e92. they had awesome grip for a daily driver and performed great in dry and wet, and also had great treadwear life considering their stickiness. my only gripe with them though was the break-away point felt too sudden in my opinion.

on my current frs, i've had toyo proxes t1sport and currently hankook v12 evo2's. i love both of them. neither feel "as sticky" as the PSS did, but of course the e92 and frs are different cars. but i love how predictable and controllable both the t1sport and v12's are. treadwear on the t1sport seem to be average to above average. the v12's ive only had for maybe 5k miles so far, so i cant really say much on wear yet (they look good as of last night when i checked).

[chaoskaze]

actually I like the stock tire & don't find them to break away all the sudden.. O.O? Or maybe it does? >__> But it can be felt/hear very easily before it happens. I'm getting MPSS today, will report how I feel.

[FlamingRectumSyndrome]

Originally Posted by MisterSheep

...We have a meetup this Thursday in Livermore which I know is much closer to Tracy than most of our East Bay meets. If you have time come down and don't be afraid to ask any other questions you may have. We have plenty of knowledgeable people who will be more than happy to help you out with any questions you may have about the platform.
Heres a link to the thread; http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...51922&page=125

Cool! Thanks for the invite, but it looks like I'm not getting out of Alameda until 6:30 or later, also car pooling as the FR-S is in the garage with a donut spare on the left rear.

Went ahead and ordered the Contis. Not the stickiest tires out there, but since the car is a 20,000+ mile-per-year commuter the reduced road noise, better ride quality, and top-notch wet traction will be appreciated (and they'll still be stickier than the OEM Michelins). Oh, and these were the one tire in the review that were specifically mentioned as having a forgiving nature at the limits of traction ("More than any other tire in the dry, this DW was resilient when driven aggressively. Grip fell off predictably, and holding the edge of performance was easy. Recovery from a slide was also quick work.").

While I was at it I ordered a set of these.

[Vracer111]

I plan on getting the DW's, but in 205/45-17 for my 17x7.5 Enkei Fujin's. Currently running the factory rubber which I actually quite like, but the wet leaves something to be desired, especially being way past the wear bars and almost slicks now. Previously had the Kumho Sport LE in 205/45-17 and absolutely loved those...best daily driver tire I've ever had on any vehicle - wet handling was amazing all the way down to the wear bars. Very much want to see how the Continental Extreme DW compares to the Kumho Sport LE's....And 205/45-17 is perfect size for the FR-S...should have been the factory tires size; lower CG, better acceleration characteristics from gearing effect, quicker responsiveness, lighter weight, and less expensive...the Kumho Sport LE's came in under $300 for a set of 4.

The 205/45-17 Kumho Sport LE's versus stock rubber on my FR-S:





The 205/45-17 Conti's will weigh even less than stock... But they do cost more than the Kumho's...

[Pat]

"The one characteristic I really despise about the stock tires is their sudden breakaway"
If you're having trouble with the OEM tires and "their sudden breakaway", your problem is not the tires. You need more practice. Going to a different, higher-performance tire will only make the situation worse. Moreover, it will inhibit you learning to drive on the limit more effectively. Keep your OEM tires and get some instruction. In my experience the OEM tires are about the easiest tires to drive at the limit that I've been on.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Pat

"The one characteristic I really despise about the stock tires is their sudden breakaway"
If you're having trouble with the OEM tires and "their sudden breakaway", your problem is not the tires. You need more practice. Going to a different, higher-performance tire will only make the situation worse. Moreover, it will inhibit you learning to drive on the limit more effectively. Keep your OEM tires and get some instruction. In my experience the OEM tires are about the easiest tires to drive at the limit that I've been on.

100% this. In general... the stickier the tires get, the more sudden they're going to break away. Plus you get the bonus of travelling at a faster spend when they do break away.

If you want tires that break away really progressively, run some full depth ice/snow tires. You won't have much grip, but they're super easy to feel what they're doing.

[FlamingRectumSyndrome]

Originally Posted by Pat

"The one characteristic I really despise about the stock tires is their sudden breakaway"
If you're having trouble with the OEM tires and "their sudden breakaway", your problem is not the tires. You need more practice. Going to a different, higher-performance tire will only make the situation worse. Moreover, it will inhibit you learning to drive on the limit more effectively. Keep your OEM tires and get some instruction. In my experience the OEM tires are about the easiest tires to drive at the limit that I've been on.

So much presumption... where to start?
Re: Needing more practice- I guess a couple of seasons of autocrossing this didn't adequately prepare me for driving an FR-S?

Re: Getting some instruction- see above.
Re: "Going to a different, higher-performance tire will only make the situation worse."- Did you actually bother to read what I've posted? Because my experience has been the exact opposite. Crappy, all-weather tires = poor breakaway characteristics, while sticker (i.e. 200 wear rated) tires yielded easily-controlled, drama-free sliding at the edge of traction. Then again, this was in a Miata, which isn't an FR-S. Hence my request for information, which you seem to have confused for condescension.

For the record, the instances where I've experienced sudden breakaway with this car have all been under steady-throttle cornering, at speeds that don't even begin to approach what I could comfortably drive in the Miata. And again, with the Falken Azenis that I ran on the Miata, exceeding the limit of traction would simply add a diagonal vector to the car's direction. This was extremely easy to control. With the FR-S the back end suddenly steps out 15 degrees or so, accompanied by the kind of tire squealing that draws all the wrong sort of attention. I guess this is great if you're trying to impress the Sonic parking lot crowd with your mad drifting skillz, but not what I expect or find useful in a sports car.

If better rubber doesn't help this, I'll explore some possibilities with suspension setup. And again, I'd appreciate knowledgeable input. If all you can offer is "Dude, you suck" sort of advice, keep it to yourself.

Thanks

[Pat]

Sorry I hurt your feelings, FRS. That was not my intent. And I did not intend to tell you that you suck.
Keep in mind driving experience doesn't equate to driving skill. I've coached a 65 year old guy that raced formula ford much of his life that couldn't drive well at all. I've also coached a guy with 25 track days under his belt that dropped a few seconds off his lap time after his first day with me. Time in a car is no guarantee you're getting the most out of the car.
Oh, and autocrossing a Miata a couple seasons doesn't exactly count as a lot of experience, either. But I'm glad to hear you're getting out there and doing it. More people should follow your lead. It looks like a very nice car. I wish I fit in them better, as a turbo Miata was one of the most fun cars I've driven on a track.
FWIW, most fast drivers I know love to get as much instruction as possible. I ask for it all the time from other instructors and racers. Sometimes I learn something; other times I don't. In the end, it's just a ton of fun either way.
I'll restate my original point: If you cannot modulate slip angle from 0 to 15 degrees on stock tires, you shouldn't go with anything more sticky. I guess the only exception to that statement might be if something is wrong with your car (alignment, suspension broken, etc.).
I'm hoping wparsons and strat61caster will comment on this thread.

[WNDSRFR]

When I saw the title of this post I thought you were discussing the GT Radial Champiro UHP's. Those are my favorite tires to date for the FR-S. The first set I went through were 235/45/17's on stock rims. The rears went slick pretty quickly and had to be replaced. Couldn't find 235's so got 215's and put them on the front. The car handled great. The rears went slick quickly again. Couldn't find any Champiro's at all. So I went with Nitto Neo Gen's at 225/45/17. Now the car handles very, very badly. Dangerously badly. Don't even ever consider Nitto Neo Gen's.
Other tires I've tried are the Conti Extreme Contact DW's 235/45/17 all around.
They were pretty good. Good wet and dry traction and quiet. What I didn't like were the sidewalls were extremely soft.
Before that I had the Falken Azenis again in 235/45/17. I took them off my VW used. They worked really well in the dry but were dangerous in the wet. I put the stock tires on the VW. The funny thing is..the VW handles better with the original FR-S tires.

[wparsons]

Is it possible what you're experiencing is a difference in balance between the FRS and Miata?

When you say the tail kicks out under steady state throttle mid corner, what else is happening? What conditions? Are you changing steering angle? Are you accelerating, or just maintaining speed? Bumpy pavement?

If the tail is stepping way out mid corner, it's possibly too much throttle for the pavement conditions and steering input.

As for the original question, typically a softer sidewall will have a bit more forgiveness at the limit, but it's not a drastic amount. RS3's make max grip with a bit more slip angle than a ZII or AD08R, but they all break away about the same when you get past their limits.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by FlamingRectumSyndrome

So much presumption... where to start?
Re: Needing more practice- I guess a couple of seasons of autocrossing this didn't adequately prepare me for driving an FR-S?

Re: Getting some instruction- see above.
Re: "Going to a different, higher-performance tire will only make the situation worse."- Did you actually bother to read what I've posted? Because my experience has been the exact opposite. Crappy, all-weather tires = poor breakaway characteristics, while sticker (i.e. 200 wear rated) tires yielded easily-controlled, drama-free sliding at the edge of traction. Then again, this was in a Miata, which isn't an FR-S. Hence my request for information, which you seem to have confused for condescension.

For the record, the instances where I've experienced sudden breakaway with this car have all been under steady-throttle cornering, at speeds that don't even begin to approach what I could comfortably drive in the Miata. And again, with the Falken Azenis that I ran on the Miata, exceeding the limit of traction would simply add a diagonal vector to the car's direction. This was extremely easy to control. With the FR-S the back end suddenly steps out 15 degrees or so, accompanied by the kind of tire squealing that draws all the wrong sort of attention. I guess this is great if you're trying to impress the Sonic parking lot crowd with your mad drifting skillz, but not what I expect or find useful in a sports car.

If better rubber doesn't help this, I'll explore some possibilities with suspension setup. And again, I'd appreciate knowledgeable input. If all you can offer is "Dude, you suck" sort of advice, keep it to yourself.

Thanks

I think you misunderstand what ppl mean. They don't mean to judge you. FRS is sorta like drift car from factory already. Stock tire is easy to break traction if ur throttle or input is abrupt, so don't try to grip drive them since limit is so low. But They do have this gigantic zone of "in the middle of breaking away" & let go nicely on top of great feedback. You literary have like bullet time in matrix to counter & fix it or keep it there & do what ever you want since you are going so slow anyway...

I just got mpss, it's nice... But the limit is scary if I drive it like stock tire & no more Dorifuto everywhere I go. So in a sense is less fun if drift around is your thing.. >_> I would definitely recommend them if you can get them @ like Costco. 70 buck off a set till end of this month on top of being cheaper then anywhere else already. I got entire set install & balanced @ 578 after tax.

You will love these bad boy. Feel wise they have like at least 3 times more grip then stock tires on top of being more quiet & absorb bumps better etc....

But now I miss drift around everywhere. 😑

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KendallH]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

I plan on getting the DW's, but in 205/45-17 for my 17x7.5 Enkei Fujin's. Currently running the factory rubber which I actually quite like, but the wet leaves something to be desired, especially being way past the wear bars and almost slicks now. Previously had the Kumho Sport LE in 205/45-17 and absolutely loved those...best daily driver tire I've ever had on any vehicle - wet handling was amazing all the way down to the wear bars. Very much want to see how the Continental Extreme DW compares to the Kumho Sport LE's....And 205/45-17 is perfect size for the FR-S...should have been the factory tires size; lower CG, better acceleration characteristics from gearing effect, quicker responsiveness, lighter weight, and less expensive...the Kumho Sport LE's came in under $300 for a set of 4.

The 205/45-17 Kumho Sport LE's versus stock rubber on my FR-S:

The 205/45-17 Conti's will weigh even less than stock... But they do cost more than the Kumho's...

Why would you go with a smaller tire than stock? The 215s from factory are a bit undersized IMO. And for a 7.5J wheel I would definitely go with a 235/40 or at least a 225/45.