Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by LostSalad

Lol when is this happening I did datalogging and analysis at Red Star but nothing else besides that.

I first want to get my transmission sorted before anyone goes and fast shifts the crap out of it :/. Heavy grind from 3rd - 4th when shifting at high gears.

My bad, Thought you met the stigworx team this past Sunday relating to Zwartkops/possible future coaching at Zwartkops.

Eish, what are you doing to sort that out? Motul Transmission fluid?

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

Out if interest we were doing between 1:06s and 1:12s on the bikes (600s) at Z. National boys 1:02s at the time.

Holy Moly that's fkn fast!

[FT_86_SM_GP]

I think the lesson learn't from this forum is stay away from EBC yellow stuff....

Everything else (Endless PB05 and above has allot of success stories) and all other products sourced from Powerbrake PTA.

Have not heard any feedback from Vari BBK's, but I actually noticed a few cars at Zwartkops sporting them. (Not sure about the results/feedback)

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Holy Moly that's fkn fast!

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

I think the lesson learn't from this forum is stay away from EBC yellow stuff....

Everything else (Endless PB05 and above has allot of success stories) and all other products sourced from Powerbrake PTA.

Have not heard any feedback from Vari BBK's, but I actually noticed a few cars at Zwartkops sporting them. (Not sure about the results/feedback)

I'm sure the BBKs are great,
My problem is the costs... Cheap big brake kits are 30k, Brembo has a kit that is *ahem* 77k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vividracing]

Honestly, if you're *only* going to upgrade fluid, you may as well replace the lines since you're going to have to bleed the system anyway. Not to mention the benefits of stainless braided lines over factory rubber ones when you're on the brakes hard during spirited driving.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Vari brakes edenvale do BBK for R14,500

Check out page 4 of this thread where Ryan86 posted prices and details

[Alang]

Originally Posted by Dammod

Agreed X3



Very dependent on driving style and how many hotlaps you try getting out of stock brakes. Expecting to do more then 4 hotlaps (track dependent) on most stock brakes is just unrealistic and dangerous - I think thats the biggest mistake people make.
Keep the number of hotlaps low, brake late and hard and stock brakes arent bad at all.

Yup, late, hard braking, keeps the temps down and the pads are more than up to the job.

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Here's a EBC yellow stuff brake pad after one track day:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77717

Damn, that's shockingly bad!
Off my shopping list!

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Since you are a 'motorcycle' track guy, you should def spend more than 1 or 2 track days with the 86, its truly a spectacular car to drive on track.

I am at two minds at my opinion of stock brakes vs upgraded brakes.

I am in agreement with both you and Freedom

1) Stock brakes durability:
From my experience, the STD brakes lasted 3 years + 2 track days.

I opted to upgrade my brake pads recently
(Because I thought my brake pads were close to cooked),

but to my surprise my STD brake pads still had approx +65% life on them ....Which proves that these brake pads are pretty good,

(That's if you upgrade to a higher boiling point brake fluid Motul RBF660 and regulate your hot laps)

2) Braking power:

I am unsure about this on the STD pads,

The STD pads do not inspire confidence, but this is more a psychological effect for me personally, as I never had the balls to reach the limit which could lead to a possibility of 'farming'.
(NB. I am a Durban Indian and I am inherently afraid of farming, and all things to do with sugarcane, lol)

So I don't really know the limits of the stock brakes.

Neither do I know the limits of the Endless pads I am running as yet...

In theory upgraded brake pads like Endless should create stronger braking power, but whether this is relevant to a N/A 86 is debatable.

IMO if you tracking a N/A 86 - you don't really need to upgrade brake pads and discs.

I improved my lap times by 3% (2 seconds) by upgrading my brake pads to Endless PB05 pads (which are decent entry track pads).
This 3% improvement could also be a result of slight increase in experience. (Learning curve)

With regards to your needs, going FI in the future would def need upgraded brakes...

I was chatting to the Red RMS SC 86 owner last Sunday, (The one which spits fire)
and he was telling me he reaches speeds of 180+ just before turn 4 at Zwartkops then needs to brake in a second or so down to 110/120 to take the bend, which is pretty scary and a possible suicide if you have stock brakes on a SC 86.

Going Off topic now ---->

Stock N/A 86 (+BRZ exhaust) @LostSalad used to do 1m22 laps at Zwartkops on stock tyres + upgraded brakes

Jacques (RGM's highly experienced 'Stiglet') did a base lap of 1m21 on a RGM SC 86 with stock tyres + upgraded brakes

Pretty similar ? N/A and Supercharged?

So that brings me to my 'off topic' point (which is obvious),

If you going to go FI ...instead of buying fancy tail lights and putting 'sound' lol please please buy a decent set of Semi Slicks, they are so much fun!

Jacq (stiglet) does close to 1m12 with Robs RGM SC 86 with Semi slicks and coilovers, that's a massive improvement of 9 seconds at Z.

Gugu Zulu does Zwartkops with the BRZ (Sti version) in 1m16.8
And from the video the BRZ looks like it has upgraded road tyres(18inch wheels).

Conclusion of off topic rant: Our Primacy tyres are fantastic drift tyres and long lasting... you can use them to track as well...but they do not GRIP well enough for a quick track car.

Ps) tyres are definitely on the list, just smoking the standard ones first.
They do slide easy, but more grip makes tracks more fun!

[86 South Africa]

So after reading more of the history in this thread I am seriously tempted to go with a Vari BBK.
They replace the discs and calipers (6 pot) + steel lines and obviously fluids too.

This option is designed to fit with the std 17" wheels too, so no worries about clearance.

Front package is a little over R20,000.

Doing Power Brake or other similar replacement discs + the hoses, fluid etc is going to be R6-7,000.

I am really tempted to go with their BBK, but still debating the difference between that and just changing discs etc. @Ryan86 will probably convince me that the BBK is worth it (I hope)?

In terms of some of the previous comments on hotlaps and STD brakes being ok etc... assuming a lap of say 1:30 then STD brakes mean I can do a whole 6 minutes of fun, hard driving before having to slow down and let the brakes cool. Boo to that

[Fish Eagle]

Time to "refresh" brake fluid which I do every 4th or 5th track day.
I just bleed out and discard the fluid in the front calipers and top up with fresh fluid - uses less than 500ml, and firms up a squishy pedal very nicely.

Price update: I bought Motul RBF660 today at the bike shop in Nelspruit.
Same price as a few months ago (R220/500ml), but this time I wangled a 10% discount, so nett price of R198/500ml

That's about 35% of the price of Endless RF650, and it's (IMO) nearly as good.
Works for me

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by 86 South Africa

So after reading more of the history in this thread I am seriously tempted to go with a Vari BBK.
They replace the discs and calipers (6 pot) + steel lines and obviously fluids too.

This option is designed to fit with the std 17" wheels too, so no worries about clearance.

Front package is a little over R20,000.

Doing Power Brake or other similar replacement discs + the hoses, fluid etc is going to be R6-7,000.

I am really tempted to go with their BBK, but still debating the difference between that and just changing discs etc. @Ryan86 will probably convince me that the BBK is worth it (I hope)?

In terms of some of the previous comments on hotlaps and STD brakes being ok etc... assuming a lap of say 1:30 then STD brakes mean I can do a whole 6 minutes of fun, hard driving before having to slow down and let the brakes cool. Boo to that

Your standard brakes are OK, but your standard brake fluid is not. It'll boil after about 4 hot laps.
So, upgrade your brake fluid to (min) Motul RBF660 (R400) and you should be fine for 10 x 1m30 laps at least.

With upgraded fluid you'll avoid catastophic failure caused by boiling brake fluid. Instead, you'll be able to feel your brakes going off progressively and gradually as you overheat your pads and you'll know when to go in.

It's all about safety, and boiling standard brake fluid is sudden, unpredictable, and you lose 80% of your braking, which means you go off the track - badly
I can assure you that it's your worst nightmare.

Unpredictable - because failure happens when you don't expect it. You overheat the brake fluid at a heavy braking point like the end of a long straight, but it doesn't boil then because it's under pressure. When you take your foot off the brake, the pressure reduces, then it boils - just like a pressure cooker. The next time you need your brakes (which could be just a quick dab before a kink, or whatever) then you get the nasty surprise.

I do a lot of tracking, my car's supercharged, I give it horns, and I've got standard spec (smaller) brakes. I normally use PB discs but stock are OK too. I use Endless PB05/MX72 pads and I don't have braided lines. My brakes are OK, and many people have been surprised by how late and how hard I can brake. The only reason I can see for me to upgrade to a BBK is to cut costs on pads and rotors, but I'm not yet convinced it'll be a saving... I doubt if a BBK will make me brake better or improve my lap times either. So for now, the R20k stays in my pocket

But maybe I just need more convincing - LOL

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Your standard brakes are OK, but your standard brake fluid is not. It'll boil after about 4 hot laps.
So, upgrade your brake fluid to (min) Motul RBF660 (R400) and you should be fine for 10 x 1m30 laps at least.

With upgraded fluid you'll avoid catastophic failure caused by boiling brake fluid. Instead, you'll be able to feel your brakes going off progressively and gradually as you overheat your pads and you'll know when to go in.

It's all about safety, and boiling standard brake fluid is sudden, unpredictable, and you lose 80% of your braking, which means you go off the track - badly
I can assure you that it's your worst nightmare.

Unpredictable - because failure happens when you don't expect it. You overheat the brake fluid at a heavy braking point like the end of a long straight, but it doesn't boil then because it's under pressure. When you take your foot off the brake, the pressure reduces, then it boils - just like a pressure cooker. The next time you need your brakes (which could be just a quick dab before a kink, or whatever) then you get the nasty surprise.

I do a lot of tracking, my car's supercharged, I give it horns, and I've got standard spec (smaller) brakes. I normally use PB discs but stock are OK too. I use Endless PB05/MX72 pads and I don't have braided lines. My brakes are OK, and many people have been surprised by how late and how hard I can brake. The only reason I can see for me to upgrade to a BBK is to cut costs on pads and rotors, but I'm not yet convinced it'll be a saving... I doubt if a BBK will make me brake better or improve my lap times either. So for now, the R20k stays in my pocket

But maybe I just need more convincing - LOL

No, I think you just have some brains, unless money isn't a big deal then why not.