05-06-2015, 11:09 AM | #127 | ||
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Plus, you really think vendors are pushing BBK's that hard? The vendors who even offer big brake kits recommend cooling mods for the engine and pads/lines/fluid first. How many posts have you seen from a vendor jumping in saying "OMG you must buy a BBK as your first mod for the track!". People on here are just stating potential issues with sti brembos. Plus, real BBK's are more expensive, yes, but thats because they are actually BBK's... And for the record, I would/am waiting for a cheap set of sti brembos. I don't track my car, and am willing to accept the potential downsides to using them. Track cars/teams and race teams do things different. Just like everyone who wants to run "racecar" things on the street because so and so racecar does it doesn't make it a good idea or practice for the street. Track pads a great idea for the track, so why not use them on the street? Track use and setup is NOT the same as street use. MANY people fail to see and understand this. And am I supposed to call Jan from Toyota and ask her what brakes they're using for their racecar and what modifications were done to properly allow it? And if I did speak to her, would we even believe it lol? Quote:
and different size bore is EXACTLY why people are saying NOT to run the Brembo's...No, most likely your car will not burst into flames if you run sti brembos, but they werent designed for the car and can cause issues. I'm not in the "you will die using sti brembo" category. Just in the "use with caution" category. |
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05-06-2015, 11:58 AM | #128 | |
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If you look at all of the performance sports cars out there today, most of the technologies if not all came from race cars. So you want Brembo STi for your own car even though it's unsafe? Yes, but I would say you should call TRD USA and ask for David Wilson. |
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05-06-2015, 12:56 PM | #129 | |
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Nowhere in there does it mention swapping the OE Bremo calipers from the STI. In fact, it specifically says "aftermarket calipers." You're telling other people to call Toyota for specifics on which brakes they used in order to prove that it wasn't an STI Brembo swap, and yet you're just automatically assuming that's what it is. I'm not saying that isn't what they did, but there's nothing to support that claim either way. Although the use of the term "aftermarket" would indicate that it wasn't a swap of an OE setup. Update: The cars for the Celebrity Race used Stop-Tech front calipers. http://www.carbuildindex.com/6448/sc...ace-car-build/ So whatever point you were trying to make with that article is invalid.
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05-06-2015, 03:08 PM | #130 | |
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- FEA analysis (least amount of weight added to be sufficient to hold the brake caliper onto the knuckle) - CNC Machning (to make the actual bracket) - Getting the OEM parts to measure and test fit against - Actually testing the setup to know there's no unexpected failures Then lets add: - Amortization of the CNC machine over a period of time - Wages for everyone involved Versus, on an old car - Take any caliper - Machine a bracket to make the caliper fit at the proper location for a given rotor - Call it a day. FYI, in the case of the AP kit, the brackets cost more than the calipers, which cost more than the hats, which cost more than the rotors. |
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05-06-2015, 06:41 PM | #131 | |
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05-06-2015, 10:12 PM | #132 | |
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05-06-2015, 11:21 PM | #133 |
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Your point is as valid as mine. How do you know Brembos STi front calipers isn't better for my setup? You guys/gals can do/spend money on what you like, I digress.
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05-07-2015, 12:04 AM | #134 | |
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I simply wouldn't want people to modify a safety aspect of their car based solely on other member's personal opinions of their experience. That's just my stance on bigger brakes, they change so much about the braking characteristics of the car, yet a lot of people do it simply for the cool factor and not realizing that many areas of braking performance can be increased through much simpler means. I realize there are those who do chose that route, and some of them did a lot of research before doing so. Props to those guys. What irritates me are those that haven't and are quick to suggest it to others. |
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05-07-2015, 12:08 AM | #135 | |
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On the flip side, price doesn't always correlate with quality. And reputable brands have slipped up on products before too. |
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05-07-2015, 06:02 AM | #136 |
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You are not obliged to buy something if you don't like the price. A business is there to make money; it is not their responsibility to tell me people they are paying too much.
Panasonic FZ1000 US$797.99 Exact same camera with Leica stamped on it US$1,188.00 yet some people pay the premium.
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05-07-2015, 07:57 AM | #137 | |
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I think there's more R&D from the more reputable companies than credit is given. I know AP Racing uses a very specific bore size on their 86 brakes. They just didn't randomly choose a bore size and call it good. You see this in every industry. An incremental change will costs noticeably more. I don't always agree with the price hike, but sometimes there's real monetary losses that they need to recoup. |
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05-07-2015, 09:57 AM | #138 | |
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Yes, larger front brakes on a car can work while keeping the stock rears, but that doesn't mean that just throwing any larger front brakes on will automatically improve performance and work with the overall dynamic of the car. There are aftermarket kits for the car were designed to work together with the stock rears. I'm 100% confident the designers of the older STIs weren't sitting there designing the brakes around the notion that one day they might be swapped onto a light FR car that was going to come out. I'm not saying that the STI brakes won't work and won't feel better than stock during daily or spirited driver, or even maybe autox. My opinion on this whole thing is inline with what CSG and RCE have said. That being that the swap won't be detrimental in most driving situations, but is not suited for tracking and even has the potential (however slight) to fail in an emergency situation on normal roads. For me suspension and brakes are the two parts of your car you should put the most thought and planning into when modding them, and I don't think you should ever go cheap on either. That doesn't mean you can't modify them without spending thousands. For suspension a good set of springs and shocks will cost you as much as cheap coilovers, and they will more likely perform better. With brakes, a good set of pads, a fluid change, and stainless lines will be more than sufficient for most people (especially if you aren't tracking and are still naturally aspirated). These cars don't put down enough power to really warrant a BBK, unless you've done significant upgrades (i.e. FI) or are tracking a lot. In either of those cases I'd imagine you've got enough money to put on an appropriate BBK anyways. I get that there is a financial motivation to the company publishing the article about the problems with the STI swap, but I also think that the issues they point out are factually/mechanically significant. I don't see this thread as a bunch of "fear mongering" as many have put it, rather it is trying to educate people about the impact of upgrades on the overall system and dynamics of the car.
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05-07-2015, 02:08 PM | #139 | |
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and yes, everything does have the potential to fail. I broke Two KW V3 front struts in half, one whiteline toe arm in half. how you ask? it all happened under relaxed street driving not while i was beating the car up. this thread has a lot of info, but also has a lot of people that DO NOT HAVE personal experience with this setup. its all speculation, all be it with a lot of knowledge base but still speculation at that. I mounted the bleeders the right way. i have tracked on this, auto-x, and daily driven for over 2 years now. for novices like me it is a decent upgrade. many have driven my car and testified to it being significantly better than stock braking performance, but i also have sticky tires and a lot of other suspension modifications, just doing brembo's seems idiotic to me, its about the entire car as a full package. bottom line is, the factual information is here. let people decide for themselves. is this a track BBK, by no means. but if paired with the right modification i think this is a very cost effective way to get better braking performance. this fear ongoing stuff needs to stop, and if you haven't driven with them, i don't think you should speculate as to what will happen. |
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05-07-2015, 02:26 PM | #140 |
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I was referring to the situation described by @CSG Mike, but like I said it is a very minimal chance (and honestly something that could happen with most any upgraded brake setup).
My point is very much in line with Andy's from RCE, "So...no the car won't explode on the way to the supermarket, but there is a shift in brake bias that I don't like. I try to put parts on my cars with a functional effect that I do like. That's my priority." Yes, the vast majority of the time the kit will work just fine in most situations (exception being a car that is tracked heavily). However, there are certain impacts it has the car that a BBK designed specifically for the application would not. If people want to do this swap with that knowledge, that's perfectly fine. It's their money and their car. Like I said, I don't see this thread as fear mongering. I haven't seen anyone say, "Doing an STI brake swap will cause you to crash and die." Sure, every thread has it's fair share of your typical forum commenters just stirring things up. But what I've found important within this thread are some people (like CSG and RCE) with a lot of track time, knowledge of, and experience in the 86 platform that are pointing out some important factors that many people may not take into consideration when modifying brake components. And in terms of the, "by that logic you shouldn't touch anything." Yes, if you really want to minimize the failure of parts it is much wiser to leave everything OE. Anytime I modify something on my car, I accept the fact that there's a decent chance I have reduced it's longevity. I'm not arguing against that. However, there are ways of doing the same type of modification that will prove better than others. From what I've seen, heard, and experienced with near stock power our cars really don't need much in terms of a brake upgrade beyond pads, fluid, and perhaps SS lines. I think a lot of people do the STI brake swap and BBK upgrades for the way it visually changes the car, and it's important to think about and weigh the other effects of the upgrade vs. the visual appeal.
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