Converting from Mitsubishi Evo VIII/IX?

[Bristecom]

In my opinion, the Evo IX has the best steering wheel, seat, shift lever, and pedals I have ever felt. The position is a bit more upright than I'd like but I still prefer the feel of it all a bit more than the FR-S/BRZ. The steering responsiveness and feedback from the road also seems better in the Evo IX which makes it more fun and sporty. And of course the engine is much more powerful than the FR-S and it has gobs more traction. I actually like the Evo IX more than the Evo X we have because it's smaller and just feels more fun and aggressive.

However, there are definitely some negatives to the Evo IX compared to the FR-S/BRZ. It's bigger and has a lot more body roll (although you can tune most of it out with good coilovers), it can be a bit harsh on bigger bumps, it gets pretty poor gas mileage, it requires more maintenance, it doesn't have a folding rear seat, and it doesn't have cruise control. It would also technically be less safe if you got into an accident due to no side or curtain airbags and it has an older chassis.

I would say that these two cars are quite different. Even my Eclipse GSX, although very similar, is still different enough for me to consider owning both. It would be a tough call to go to an FR-S from an Evo IX I think... you would likely be disappointed with some things. Now if they just added a little more power to the FR-S and a bit more feel/feedback, it would surely bridge that gap.

[R3VOLUTION]

I have been looking for a low mileage/relatively stock 9 SE for a long time, and recently I've been looking quite seriously as my X was stolen a month or so ago. Given how hard they are to find and the price when you do, I've chosen to get a 14 SWP BRZ Limited instead. Unless a perfect 9 pops up, and then my choice would go that way.

[pacent]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

But part of that is because your car seems pretty far from stock.

My car is still on the stock turbo and stock internals, but all of my gripes would still apply to an otherwise stock Evo with a test pipe and lowering springs/coilovers.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by pacent

My car is still on the stock turbo and stock internals, but all of my gripes would still apply to an otherwise stock Evo with a test pipe and lowering springs/coilovers.

"Otherwise stock" is an overused phrase. While it's not uncommon to find an Evo with those mods you mentioned, that's definitely not stock at all or close to it, from a performance standpoint... and those bolt-ons are the culprits for your dislikes of the car rather than the car itself, since I think going with a test pipe and coilovers on pretty much any other car would have similar inconveniences.

[pacent]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

"Otherwise stock" is an overused phrase. While it's not uncommon to find an Evo with those mods you mentioned, that's definitely not stock at all or close to it, from a performance standpoint... and those bolt-ons are the culprits for your dislikes of the car rather than the car itself, since I think going with a test pipe and coilovers on pretty much any other car would have similar inconveniences.

If you had bothered to read my original post, the biggest reason why I won't put my kids in my evo is because of the safety rating...and that is definately because of the car and nothing else.

Furthermore, if you think bolting on a test pipe and coilovers leaves a car 'not even close to stock', then we're done here. I have nothing else left to say.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

I did read your post, but it's not necessary to address every single aspect of it in every reply to you, especially when I quoted a specific portion that I was addressing.

Take a bone stock Evo and drive it around a track, whether it's an autocross course or VIR. Then take an Evo with a test pipe and coilovers (provided they aren't crap quality ones and were installed properly) around the same track. Yes, there will be a big difference, and it have felt it myself and looked at the lap time numbers to verify at the last autocross I went to. We're not talking about someone with an aftermarket intake and some Swift springs. Just because the car isn't modded to close to what it's fully capable of doesn't mean that it's still stock or stock-ish, or whatever term people want to use.

[BroDoYouEvenDrift]

So I have about 1500 miles on my FR-S now... and I'm having serious buyer's remorse.

I miss my EVO IX. I knew I should have just fixed it...

[DeeezNuuuts83]

What was wrong with it?

[BroDoYouEvenDrift]

Threw the #3 rod out of the block doing a 4th gear pull on the highway.

Stock turbo is a fun setup but at 30 psi on E85 the huge torque spike was too much for the stock internals. I was toying with the idea of just throwing a built 2.0 into it with a slightly bigger turbo.. something that would make around 400 whp on 93 and 500 whp on E85 but I ended up going with the FR-S instead. It was highly modified for the 8 years I owned it.. so I can't be too upset it finally gave up the ghost.

The FR-S is awesome. I do think it's a great car and it drives exceptionally well but it just reminds me of my EVO so much that I miss it every time I drive it (and especially every time I step on the gas pedal).

[johnnyfast11]

i came from an evo x. the gas was so bad. 17-19mpg.

i now love 26-30mpg.

[autobrz]

Hi, being a previous brz owner, I want to ask current owners and potential owners about a certain aspect of the fun that can get boring.

I set up my stock brz with 2.4* of front camber and left everything else completely stock, except for the clear corner markers. With stock michelins, the car was extremely neutral and predictable. the additional camber increased the corner entry speed, grip and corner exit speed significantly over stock. But after a while, the car just felt boring to drive fast. It was so predictable, I just went into corners much faster than I used to and much faster than other cars on the road could but I didn't even smile when I did. It was like the car was so capable and safe to go fast around corners, I didn't have to do anything except just turn the steering wheel. When I went in a little too fast, the stability control would just catch me.

Now that I drive a mazda 3, it has a lot less grip due to higher center of gravity (but not much more weight at 2988lbs) but I find the car more engaging to drive. The stability control doesn't come in nearly as aggressively as in the brz and I get just enough body roll to make me feel how hard I am making the car work in a corner. the extra torque over the brz is nice, too.

I guess what I'm getting at is, on the street, a slower cornering car with more feedback through body roll (although not so much that it feels sloppy) and more torque than the brz can be more fun to drive.

Another thing that I started to notice the more I drove the brz is the suspension has very little bump travel. Despite the flat cornering characteristic of the car, I felt like it was sitting on its bump stops as soon as the suspension was loaded at all. in many instances when the front lost grip, I felt it didn't have to if the shocks had more bump travel.

Does anyone else agree that more body-roll and more torque equals more fun to drive when flogging a car?

[ZENBOX]

I can certainly give you input from a BRZ owner currently since 2012. I've owned a total of 4 EVOs; two 8's (GSR, MR) two 9's both MRs. Yes, I went back to the Evo that many times. In between I had a Yaris, and a corolla AE86, I love my Toyotas as much I do my CT9A.

In comparison, daily driver stock for stock they're nearly identical in steering feel, slight edge to the EVO because of road feel is much better on the hydraulic vs. electric assisted, however both have the same steering ratio, and the turning radius is better on the BRZ/FRS, but the feel is slightly better on the EVO.

Stock suspension, I believe the EVO had a much harsher ride, so the winner would go to BRZ/FRS for daily driver capabilities.

Tuning/upgrade mods I'd give this to the EVO if you're a DIY'er, the layout of the inline 4 is easier to access everything and it has an iron block; I 4G63T engine. Also love the stock twinscroll turbo on the 9, and Evo's are already running 19psi from factory and can safely run 21psi with bolt ons and a flash.

HOWEVER, since I've gotten rid of my Evo and can no longer find an acceptably clean Evo that hasn't been beaten up and the unknown of it not lasting for my daily driver, I went with the BRZ.

BRZ/FRS is bank friendly. It doesn't take all your money on the gas pump, but still does take premium fuel to run it. It was designed from the ground up as a sports car and not some econo sedan with additional welds, wider fenders, large wing big brakes and turbo. I do miss the turbo'd feel of the Evo and you can fit 5 with a large trunk to take on road trips. But the class of the BRZ and sexiness of the classic lines and simplicity of the engine layout and driving experience, is different than that of the EVO. I guess it's just a different type of pleasure I experience when it comes to driving the BRZ. It's not super fast on straight lines, but in corners it's a hoot. I can only imagine what wider sticker wheels and rubber would do to the handling.

Before I end, I like to say the both cars are awesome drivers car. EVO VIII/IX are the rawest purest rally cars the US ever got IMO. But to fully feel and experience what the car is capable of, you'd have to take it to a track or rally course and to reach the limitations of the car and it's differential gadget wizardry you'd have to be driving it like a mad man possessed by Tommi Makinen's rage driving rally spirit. The turbo boost is intoxicating sure, after awhile that excitement drys out and becomes old. speeding tickets happen. The BRZ is easy going and is a lot of fun

On the other end there's the twins. The limits on the twins are more easily attainable by novice drivers like my wife and myself. The car is well balanced that steering is predictable, it's like when you sit in the car, you become part of it. You become the nimble forgiving cat that it is and I enjoy this. Sure being turbo quick/fast is cool, but being part of a handling machine like the twins is euphoric to any driver.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by autobrz

Now that I drive a mazda 3, it has a lot less grip due to higher center of gravity (but not much more weight at 2988lbs) but I find the car more engaging to drive. The stability control doesn't come in nearly as aggressively as in the brz and I get just enough body roll to make me feel how hard I am making the car work in a corner. the extra torque over the brz is nice, too.

I guess what I'm getting at is, on the street, a slower cornering car with more feedback through body roll (although not so much that it feels sloppy) and more torque than the brz can be more fun to drive.

Does anyone else agree that more body-roll and more torque equals more fun to drive when flogging a car?

I see what you meant in the other thread about going off about body roll. I was going to mention this in the other thread but this seems like the better place.

My other car is a mk6 GTI that has a higher center of gravity, more body roll, and much more torque than an FR-S/BRZ. It's similar to your Mazda 3 in that respect. When you enter a hard turn in the GTI, you have to wait for the weight to transfer. You can feel the body roll over and the car pitch to the side. It feels like it takes a while for the body to settle. Obviously in reality it's a second or less, but after spending a week in the FR-S, it feels way too long. The roll angle also feels greater than it is because you're sitting so high off the ground with the higher CG. It's only after the car settles that you feel it's ready for additional inputs.

I personally find that body roll to be annoying as heck. You lose some confidence/connection with the car because of it and it makes the car feel unsettled and/or sloppy. It's one of the reasons I look forward to getting back into my FR-S after driving the GTI, and feel that satisfaction of sitting in a low-slung car when I buckle in. [I've actually just spent a week driving my GTI, so this topic is pretty relevant to me at the moment]. Adding sticky tires or taking the car to the track just amplifies the problem.

In my opinion, you want just enough body roll to feel the weight transfer, but no more than that. Anything beyond that is just excess body movement/slop. I know some Vette Z06's were faulted for having too little body roll such that it made it hard to feel the weight transfer (i.e., spooky handling), but that's an extreme scenario and the FR-S has nowhere near that level of roll stiffness.

Just my 2c -- this is likely to be a highly subjective topic though.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by ZENBOX

In comparison, daily driver stock for stock they're nearly identical in steering feel, slight edge to the EVO because of road feel is much better on the hydraulic vs. electric assisted, however both have the same steering ratio, and the turning radius is better on the BRZ/FRS, but the feel is slightly better on the EVO.

Yeah, I honestly felt like they were pretty close, but my experiences are at different ends of the spectrum (eight years of Evo IX ownership vs. one REAL test drive of an FR-S), so I wasn't able to really say which one was better in that department, but it was clear that they were pretty close, which was mirrored in some of the earlier reviews of the twins.

Originally Posted by ZENBOX

Tuning/upgrade mods I'd give this to the EVO if you're a DIY'er, the layout of the inline 4 is easier to access everything and it has an iron block; I 4G63T engine. Also love the stock twinscroll turbo on the 9, and Evo's are already running 19psi from factory and can safely run 21psi with bolt ons and a flash.

Actually, I think it was the VIII that was running 19 psi stock, while the IX had a little more, though 20.2 psi is the number that comes to mind from the brochure.

Originally Posted by ZENBOX

HOWEVER, since I've gotten rid of my Evo and can no longer find an acceptably clean Evo that hasn't been beaten up and the unknown of it not lasting for my daily driver, I went with the BRZ.

You know, that's one of my fears if my car were ever totaled. There isn't much else out there similar to it that I would want, and most of the IXs that will hit the used market at this point probably won't be in the right condition, at least not for a price. The dealership down the street from me (where I bought my two Evo IXs) has two brand new, never titled ones in the showroom, but they are selling them for A LOT. But I have always told myself that in that position, given what cars are out at the moment, I'd likely get one of the twins.

Originally Posted by ZENBOX

BRZ/FRS is bank friendly. It doesn't take all your money on the gas pump, but still does take premium fuel to run it. It was designed from the ground up as a sports car and not some econo sedan with additional welds, wider fenders, large wing big brakes and turbo. I do miss the turbo'd feel of the Evo and you can fit 5 with a large trunk to take on road trips.

But that's just the compromise that you make for it to have that performance and that kind of packaging without having the pricetag of an M3 sedan. But the actual behind-the-wheel interaction and performance is up there. It certainly didn't drive like an econo sedan, even if its roots are evident when looking at its inside or outside.

Originally Posted by ZENBOX

Before I end, I like to say the both cars are awesome drivers car. EVO VIII/IX are the rawest purest rally cars the US ever got IMO. But to fully feel and experience what the car is capable of, you'd have to take it to a track or rally course and to reach the limitations of the car and it's differential gadget wizardry you'd have to be driving it like a mad man possessed by Tommi Makinen's rage driving rally spirit. The turbo boost is intoxicating sure, after awhile that excitement drys out and becomes old. speeding tickets happen. The BRZ is easy going and is a lot of fun

On the other end there's the twins. The limits on the twins are more easily attainable by novice drivers like my wife and myself. The car is well balanced that steering is predictable, it's like when you sit in the car, you become part of it. You become the nimble forgiving cat that it is and I enjoy this. Sure being turbo quick/fast is cool, but being part of a handling machine like the twins is euphoric to any driver.

Yes, the twins are more easily exploitable on a regular basis on regular roads. But a bone stock Evo doesn't need a track as badly as the more heavily modded ones do.


Thanks for the input, great post!