Surreptitious: an E7 re-designed and BUILT by oldeskewltoy and friends

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by TRD_07

Awesome build!

The car is up and running.... not very well, but the progress in self-tuning is proceeding.



Mean while.... her first coming out party...... a small meet May 2010 @ VIP Performance








More to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

I've owned quite a few nice handling cars throughout my life, and one of the better ones is the AE86. I've owned 2 so far(3 if you count the wife's), they make a very nice combination of nimbleness, precise feel, and yet "big" solid axle toss-ability (antiquity?).

Surreptitious drives fair... only parts of the suspension have been upgraded, so some of it is 30 years old.

When I originally got this car it had cut springs, worn out bushings, dead shocks....


Whoops... sorry for olde man rambling



The Ae71 chassis is VERY similar... and yet not quite the same as the AE86... I've already touched on this before... here are two additional examples...

A bit o' back story... The E7 chassis cars are equipped with inadequate (my opinion) brakes. It uses solid rotors up front, and drum brakes in the rear. Fine for an 80 hp commuter, but comical for anything that will see repeated high G loads/stops (from track days... or even backwoods cruising/road carving)


1) The idea - The AE86 GT-S has more modern brakes - vented rotors up front, with a solid rotor our back... 4 wheel disc brakes. Swap them into the E7 and add a substantial performance upgrade... as well as open up suspension options


2) Well one of the more subtle differences is the AE86 has more King Pin angle then the AE71 does. King Pin angle? Suffice it to say the angle the wheel is in, in relation to the shock absorber

example below... from a different Toyota... but note how the angle of the suspension on the left is greater then the one on the right



The AE86 equipment has more angle than the AE71 parts. More angle means when everything gets bolted together, the struts will have positive camber...


Positive camber is not a good thing when it comes to handling... We aren't looking for "MEAN" camber, or anything extreme... after all this is a serious driving car... not a car show queen....

We DO want about 1/2 negative to about 1 1/2 negative, depending on circumstances, and just bolting on AE86 struts into an E7 will give you positive camber.

So the suspension went through a few designs(redesigns) before I found what I desired.

Many suggested using adjustable strut tops and be done with it.



I'm not a fan of them, they tend to transmit a great deal of vibration and noise...

Another solution was to either find, or make, longer lower control arms.



I decided to try this approach first. Above are stock lower control arms extended about 10mm each. Why 10mm? The difference is actual 6mm per side to correct the positive camber.... adding 4mm per side allows me to get to about 1/2 negative.

The problem... once bolted them in... I had 3/4 negative on the right side, and 1/2 negative on the left.


What was needed was an adjustable lower control arm... something where you could get some adjustment. The problem here was all the available options were all hard mounts.



I wanted a bushed mount... so I cobbled together a few different things and had my own design built...



Now that the chassis dynamics of the 2 cars have been blended, I will have 4 wheel disc brakes in a 2200# car.

I can also fully utilize the suspension aftermarket available for the AE86....





More to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy

I wanted a bushed mount... so I cobbled together a few different things and had my own design built...

Oh the story here....

My own design... built. I've tried welding... and lets just say my welding isn't something that should be used on the suspension of a car...

Soooo I had a friend make them for me.... the problem with that is I'm at the "mercy" of my friend... and he placed a little demand on me and my car...

Go drag racing..........

Yep.... go drag racing

Now... a little bit of back ground... the last drag race I participated in at a track prior to this one... was back in 1979... when I owned a 1968 Ram Air III GTO... so it had been 30 years since I was at a track and officially drag raced


Here she is wearing her drag strip grease paint




And her 3 runs..... it took me a bit to get the knack...




Note the 60 foot times... ALL suck... but note the 2nd and 3rd run are both through the traps @ 88.7 mph...

Not to bad... now calculate in the piss poor starts... and the original 3.58 final drive... along with a poorly geared 5 speed....

a "slow" 88.7 mph trap by me... means a more qualified driver should be able to get my little car down the 1/4 mile in about 14.8 to 15 flat.


15 seconds isn't blistering... but it is fast for a 1.6 liter rwd Corolla



More to come......

[oldeskewltoy]

Sorry... been a way for a bit... Grunt's lump blew a headgasket....

Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy

I wanted a bushed mount... so I cobbled together a few different things and had my own design built...




I can also fully utilize the suspension aftermarket available for the AE86....

Tanabe front sway bar up (25mm).... stock GTS rear bar (15mm) AJPS ball joints, and MOST of an AE86 TRD bushing kit....




Custom made springs to my specifications - 5.3 kg/mm front and 3.5kg/mm rear with a 1" drop in the front, and a 1/2" drop in the back - along with HTS112 full stroke dampers




Did I mention... the HTS dampers are fully adjustable....




The adjustment scale from the HTS manual....



Oh... can't forget the Cusco AS strut bar... partially seen on page 2

With all these goodies controlling her... although she rides nearly at stock ride height... she is FAR from stock...


More to come.....

[boxer 2.5]

I wish I had money to dump into an old, ugly car and make it beautiful... Good work old timer!

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by boxer 2.5

I wish I had money to dump into an old, ugly car and make it beautiful... Good work old timer!

I wish I had enough $$ to do it even better then it is.....

My total investment in this car is still less then a new FRS... a lot closer to a tC.


Now... think of all the money dumped into some of the current FRS's... I'm sure there are at least 75... and maybe 100 - $50,000 FRS's....

Is there a $100,000 FRS yet???

About taking an old, ugly car and make it beautiful....

I didn't see it when I first got it... but I have to admit... this car has yet to take a bad photo.....















Even weird angle, or lens trickery stuff tends to look good....







More to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Even olde men learn lessons....

Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy

FJO Racing WAS a small company in Canada that built a mil spec management system known as the 341b.

Here are the specifications for the 341b version 2 - the biggest influence to my purchasing this unit was its all weather capabilities.... back in 2008 there were NOT as many middle range systems as there are today. Most management systems were either very pricey, or mega squirt... I wanted something far more reliable then the 2008 version of MS

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...y/FJOspecs.jpg


The 341B MIGHT even be capable to operate the Twins...

The learned lesson.... BEFORE you commit to ANY management system, make sure either you... or your tuner is familiar, and fully capable of tuning on the system you purchased...

The FJO 341b v2 is capable of running a MUCH more advanced engine then a simple 4AGE... but a system is only as good as the ability of the operator to input and adjust parameters.



I've had 3 "professional" tuners try to tune Surreptitious, along with me, and a few friends. None of us have ever tuned an FJO system. Admittedly there were a few hiccups along the way... but it has been over 3 years now, and although running, and idling.... mostly.... NONE of the tunes instilled any confidence in her regular use.

The current tune in her is better then most have been... but there is still some tweaking needed... I'm hoping once those tweaks are accomplished, I'll have more confidence in her regular use.



More to come.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy

I'm hoping once those tweaks are accomplished, I'll have more confidence in her regular use.



More to come.....

I'll get back to ancient history (the car build) sooner or later... but now for a bit of more recent history........




Even years (2010, 2012, now 2014) are the years that my car must be emissions capable to go through and get registered...

Back in 2010, Drift Office in Auburn managed to get her passed emissions... with a 6mm hole in the intake

Two years later (2012) she failed on her first try, and I had PSI try their hand @ tuning her... they were a bit less successful then Drift Office, but a new cat helped get her through....

2014 - Its time for inspection again... Loynings has a go at tuning her. They put her on their steady state dyno and tune her to have AFRs in the 12.5 to 13 range. I take her through, and she promptly fails 1100HC, 5.0CO - similar numbers to when PSI attempted. She goes back into Loynings, they move idle timing to 2 degree BTDC, and open up the throttle body a little to compensate for the timing. I take her back through and she passes!!!

Not super clean @ 214HC and 0.455CO, but clean enough. And now there is an added benefit... she seems to idle well now....

so well that during the test... the cooling fan came on... and she not only didn't stall, she still passed emissions even with the fan on


Sooooo I took her out and enjoyed the nice sunny day today... on our way home we encountered an AMG C36... he went home less happy.......


I promise... I'll be back with more.....

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy

I'll get back to ancient history (the car build) sooner or later...



I promise... I'll be back with more.....

What you see below is the ONLY bolt-in 6 speed conversion for use in the AE86.



Well... How to begin the story of the development of the ONLY bolt-in 6 speed conversion for the AE86..... It began back in 2006 when I owned an AE86...

remember that... I owned an AE86...??? http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=12

well back then, I was trying to solve 2 problems with modified AE86s... one being the T50 (only 5 speed available in all AE86s) gear ratios sucked... ... and the other that the T50 was fragile

TRD made a few different gear sets (one was expensive, and the other... was left testicle expensive ) and although stronger metal was used in the gear sets, the overall design of the T50 gearbox dated back to the late 1960s/early 70s when the typical Toyota using this gearbox was lucky to have 80hp, while the car using it would be easily under 2200 pounds.

By the way...it isn't just horsepower/torque that is the enemy of transmissions and transaxles, the MASS of the vehicle has a lot to do with how long a particular transmission holds up for....

Ok... so back on point.... and in time... While I began my search to find a solution to the T50, a forum member over @ Club4ag, his forum name is/was "170BHP" had related how he had used a 6 speed from a Miata... with a tailhousing from an RX8 (both early 2000 model year versions) and then used an adapter plate.

I was intrigued... and so I did some further research....


... AND of course... with typical forum stability... that posting was lost... but here is a revival of sorts from 2007 - http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=830&page=1

For those who like following along from the original...


For those who like Cliff's Note's versions...

I had connected with a well known Mazda Rotary guy (Rob Golden - Pineapple Racing) and after investing nearly $8000 ($1500 of which was mine) we had a failed casting...





and then a machined billet housing



It has taken over 3 years, and as mentioned over $8000... and it ended...


Rob had invested enough... time... and money... and he saw little profit potential. He wanted out.


Well, as luck would have it... someone else was also working on this problem. I'm not sure if my efforts and outreach had helped inspire the design or not... it really isn't important...


What is important is it had finally been made


A company based in Ireland had developed the kit for one of its clients - Joe Moore and his supercharged 4AGZE AE86



Since its introduction it has had 3 revisions... and one of our recent clients has mounted it to his Hasselgren built 4AGE...







more to come....

[Dipstik-sportech]

I may know a guy that built a custom adapter made to fit a t5 mustang trans behind the 4age. Way cheaper and easier to find

The Frozen North

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

I may know a guy that built a custom adapter made to fit a t5 mustang trans behind the 4age. Way cheaper and easier to find

The Frozen North

but does it bolt into an AE86 without having to cut the AE86 for it to fit??

[Dipstik-sportech]

Yes sir it does. I'll try to snap some pics in Sunday

The Frozen North

[oldeskewltoy]

Originally Posted by Dipstik-sportech

Yes sir it does. I'll try to snap some pics in Sunday

The Frozen North

Well... while you get that...


In my car I decided to NOT use the shifter relocation kit, I did this because the stock shifter location in many rwd Corollas is a bit too far from the driver. When shifting to 3rd, or 5th gears, it is a LONG reach...and so I extended the shifter hole in my car to accommodate the front most shifter position on the J160...

Note the structural cross brace was left intact.



And there is just enough room... note 2ft 7"





Final fitment



A bit of work is needed on the underside as well.



This will allow the shift selector rod enough clearance to operate




Final fitment






More to come....

[oldeskewltoy]

Sooo.... length (body opening and shifter cup) appears to be pretty good, the opening should allow the shifter cup to clear the cross member. So now that the car is prepared to accept the new transmission, we need to see what the transmission needs to fit the car.........


a quick 2 panel show the current mounts for the 2 transmissions. There are a few obvious issues to overcome....



1) the J160 mount is about 3 11/16" further back then the mount on the T50 (AE71 T50 mount)



and 2) the J160 mount hangs down significantly more (almost 2" lower overall), and 3) The T50 mount is NOT spaced evenly from side to side, while the J160 is evenly spaced.


Because of the amount of drop, AND the uneven side to side spacing the original cross member was discarded... to begin the brainstorming once again.......




If you stare long enough... the J160 mount begins to "tell" you the mount it "wants"





So now that the mount has designed its own shape... we let the car design the rest of the shape... now the problem we have is the J160 mount is too far back to fit any of the area Toyota designed to support transmissions in the AE71....


You can see the T50 cross member fits the 13" span by how clean it is.. also if you look carefully I've drawn a small area inside the trans hole that represents the location of the J160 mount in relation to the floor


So the mount needs to sweep, or "wing" forward.....



Yes... that is corrugated paper for now, the mount itself is being built in 1/8" plate... Once the crossmember has been sized, gusset supports will be added to reinforce the plate.


More to come.....