Frs vs s2000

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by aCab

Interesting debate going on here.

I go back to my "greater than the sum of its parts" argument for the frs/brz - just like a Miata, very surprising performance for what it is.

S2000 is the sum of its parts - in my experience it's exactly what you expect. Nothing more, nothing less.

High point of my s2000 owner ship was the first month. FRS I enjoy more and more with each passing day, just like my NA Miata.

Cars are just tools for drivers to get their job done. All are fun.

Mine was the first two months.. the first just having fun, the second one of the few track days I could do without a bar.... I still liked the car for autocross but that was it's only usage.. ever. The next two years was convincing myself I really liked the car until I finally said screw it and sold it at a loss of 12k (~32k out the door new in 06, sold for 20k - OTD price added for ZDan to have fun with ) after 19,000 miles...

The S2000 is a good car, but it's far from a great car IMO. Not saying the BRZ is a great car either, but it's closer (for what I like anyways).

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tpham18nm

Why does the sticker price of the s2000 matter in 2013. Even if the car was around 40k, 38k, 35k, the fact is; you can find them being sold for less than 25k. So with that said, money is money. Weather spending 25k on a new frs and 25k on a used s2000 your still spending 25k! With this said it doesn't matter the sticker price of the s2000, instead, you should ask yourself; which car is better for 25 thousand dollars. a modern 2013 frs, or the dated design of the s2000?

Because we are comparing stock vs stock. Used car values make any conversation of stock vs stock pointless. I could bring up a C5 Z06 that destroys both of these cars on track if we use used car values to compare cars...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I would have thought I'd have one by now! But given work uncertainties, no car payment makes sense for the moment. With more security, I'll probably sell the S2k and get one. Or another used S2k!

As long as you keep the RX7.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Again, hardtop was never an option but an accessory. The only "hardtopped model" came with it included in its inflated price. Most didn't consider the CR to be the more desirable model because it was de-contented (no leather, no convertible top, no A/C or stereo), you paid more for less (except you did get the hardtop). And if you want to consider top-of-the-line models, why aren't we talking about the $28-29k "10 Series" FR-S?

Realistically, the BRZ Limited is most comparable to the S2000. The S2000 definitely was more expensive, but you exaggerated this point to an extreme degree when you said:

AC and Stereo were easy to order though. A CR with AC (stock stereo sucks so I'd rather put my own in anyways) is the only S2K I'd consider in the future.. I've gone back and forth on it a lot.. so it's the most desirable to me. I like the AP2 more in general, and the quicker rack, aero improvements (although ugly), etc make the CR attractive to me.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by vhx1

Here's how I see it... The solution? BRZ DD, S2k track rat

S2k:
Pros:
1. Better suspension by design: Multilink F/R, adjustable camber, caster, toe from the factory.
2. More fun to drive.
3. Reliability when driven hard on the track. F2xC engines are proven to be reliable.
4. Peak power output more than BRZ

Cons:
1. Softtop
2. Not very practical
3. Harder to find in pristine condition

BRZ:
Pros:
1. More spacious and practical. Much more viable as a DD
2. Fixed roof
3. modern safety standards
4. Comes with modern creature comforts ala navi, heated seats etc.

Cons:
1. Given Subaru's track record with poor factory tunes and engine reliability on the EJ25x series, engine reliability (when tracked/driven hard) is a serious concern. Let's hope they've got it right this time.

Agreed with all of this except.. I never found my S2K to be as fun to drive as some other cars (overall, it was more fun in mountains that aren't anywhere near where I live), including the BRZ. :shrug:

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by aCab

@ZDan, you're crazy trying to come into and FRS/BRZ board and try and prove the s2000 is the better car. Come on man, you know better. I know you know your stuff, Mike knows you know your stuff, but these ft86 members don't. You're just going in circles.

Austin has returned

[thill]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Because we are comparing stock vs stock. Used car values make any conversation of stock vs stock pointless. I could bring up a C5 Z06 that destroys both of these cars on track if we use used car values to compare cars...

Thank you for saying this. I have been thinking this the whole time (C5 Z06). I have seen some lower mileage C5 Z06's near me for under $20K. These cars are not that expensive for parts, and the engines are bullet-proof. Really considering one. Also, not all used cars are the same. I live in the rust belt and when you start trying to find 10-12 year old sports cars here, it can get murky. Many of them are going to need some work.. S2K's within 200 miles of me are slim pickings. I see 2 on Autotrader. I have to expand my search more than 500 miles to get any decent selection.....

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

Does CSG BRZ still have engine issues? Not a knock on the twins, I am honestly curious because I want to consolidate cars to a BRZ.

We've altered our driving styles to accommodate the car, and haven't seen any issues yet...

I've seen nearly a 100% correlation between tracked cars and *early* (A00) ECU revisions.

I've yet to see a A01 ECU car have the DI seal failure, but most of the guys that track are early adopters with A00 ECUs.

Also, I've yet to see a car with a current ECUtek tune have the DI seal failure as well, although a few have the early symptoms. However, the early symptoms have not progressed to more serious symptoms, and they've been around a while now, so we're unsure if the problem will persist.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AyJay

I can't help but LMAO @ people when they say the twins have an advantage over the S2000 because they're "easier to drive fast".

In that same line of thinking, 250cc sport bikes are easier to drive fast also... but I don't see people running out to buy 250s unless they are chicks or daisy fresh noobs.

I want a 300... but I may be biased since I have a habit of driving low hp cars in a pack of high hp cars.

I own a F4i, but want something with less power so I can focus on technique

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by vhx1

Here's how I see it... The solution? BRZ DD, S2k track rat

S2k:
Pros:
1. Better suspension by design: Multilink F/R, adjustable camber, caster, toe from the factory.
2. More fun to drive.
3. Reliability when driven hard on the track. F2xC engines are proven to be reliable.
4. Peak power output more than BRZ

Cons:
1. Softtop
2. Not very practical
3. Harder to find in pristine condition

BRZ:
Pros:
1. More spacious and practical. Much more viable as a DD
2. Fixed roof
3. modern safety standards
4. Comes with modern creature comforts ala navi, heated seats etc.

Cons:
1. Given Subaru's track record with poor factory tunes and engine reliability on the EJ25x series, engine reliability (when tracked/driven hard) is a serious concern. Let's hope they've got it right this time.

Cheater!

@vhx1 owns both the s2k and BRZ, similar to several posters in this thread...

You'd think the convertible is a better daily and the coupe the better track car... :roflmao:

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

I think Mike said at a certain point, the S2000 advantage becomes 'painfully obvious'. I'm curious if we remove the double wishbone set-up and the drivetrain/powertrain differences from the equation, where are the supposed S2000 technical advantages, if any?

Just the amount of equipment from the factory.

- Oil cooler - factory on S2k, none on FRS/BRZ.
- full alignment capability front/rear - factory on S2k, toe only on FRS/BRZ
- Aerodyanmics - S2k makes significant front downforce. Rear downforce is easy to make with a wing

If you compare the drivetrain, the S2k has:
- Bulletproof engine
- Much stronger transmission (early figure indicate the S2k trans can handle around 80% more torque than the BRZ/FRS before giving out)
- Stronger axles/CVs

A lot of these strengths are due to the engineering tolerances being cut to reduce cost on the FRS/BRZ.

FRS/BRZ advantages:
- Modern Technology
- More aerodynamic (less drag, less rear lift)
- less NVH

S2k Advantages:
- huge front downforce from the factory
- designed to be unstable (think fighter jets... theyre purposely made to be unstable to promote maneuverability) This makes the car want to rotate whether you want it to or not... which is why so many s2ks are totalled by spins on the street.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The S2000's 49F/51R weight distribution is a decent advantage over the FR-S/BRZ's 54F/46R (both with driver and fuel). Should give the S2000 as much as a ~10% acceleration advantage out of lower-speed corners.

Funny that you say this; it applies to higher speed corners too, if grip is the limiting factor rather than power.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Funny that you say this; it applies to higher speed corners too, if grip is the limiting factor rather than power.

Not so much. Since only the rear wheels accelerate the car, the difference between having 46% vs. 51% of the car's weight on them is significant. But *all* the tires are providing lateral grip in cornering. The AP1 will have a slight front grip advantage due to less weight per tire width, FR-S/BRZ will have a slight rear grip advantage for the same reason, but they're going to be quite close overall if we don't take into account the AP1's camber advantage.
AP2 would have an overall grip advantage from tires.
But stock vs. stock, higher-speed cornering advantage is likely with FR-S/BRZ due to less rear lift, vs. the non-CR S2000, anyway. Right?

Speaking of rear lift, I got bigtime wheelspin at trackout of turn 12 leading onto the front straight at NHMS last weekend in the monster RX-7 on the last lap of my time trial. At ~105mph. In 4th gear. NEED WING!
Cornerworkers thought there must have been oil on the track and closed it down for a bit...

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We've altered our driving styles to accommodate the car, and haven't seen any issues yet...

I've seen nearly a 100% correlation between tracked cars and *early* (A00) ECU revisions.

I've yet to see a A01 ECU car have the DI seal failure, but most of the guys that track are early adopters with A00 ECUs.

Also, I've yet to see a car with a current ECUtek tune have the DI seal failure as well, although a few have the early symptoms. However, the early symptoms have not progressed to more serious symptoms, and they've been around a while now, so we're unsure if the problem will persist.

How can you tell which ecu you have?