BRZ/FR-S vs e46 M3

[JGalp]

Hey all, just curious if anyones driven an e46 m3 and was curious what your experience was compared to the twins, also if you've driven a supercharged twin how it may compare. i know this is pretty broad but if anyone has please share your experience!

[exE36M3]

FWIW - I came from the E36 M3 and the twins are pretty close to that experience. As much as the naysayers think the E36 was the weaker of the M3 line, it's hard to get past the "best handling car at any price" award from Car and Driver.

With that being said the E46 M3 is only a marginally better car IMHO than the E36 line.
It's heavier - much, much heavier than the E36 and obviously more than the GT86 cars.
So you will feel that weight going into turns and coming out. Then there's the reliability and build quality. If the E46 didn't have that wonderful motor, there's not much else to brag about. If you are thinking of that car, consider an E36 with the E46 motor transplant. Going prices are around $10k and you'll get some fairly cheap maintenance over that car's lifetime than any E46.

I'm a BMW CCA member pushing 20 years. And that's just my opinion.

[Gabzor]

I agree with exE36M3.. I've driven a few s2k's and I thought the E36 was kind of like s2k on roids, similar power bands so yeah.. (stock for stock) The E36 was also much easier to drive, but I've also driven a few modded s2k's and I wouldn't go back to the E36..
The E46 m3 was great, but heavy, although it feels planted because of it.. Supercharged twin to me feels more like a v6, where as the e46 m3 is an i6, so that's how it feels..

E46 M3's are not cheap though (My friend had a Z4M, and my cousin had an HPF stage2 E46 M3.. and the SMG gearbox is kind of no good.. a nice manual E46 is still rare, and costs more than a used BRZ/FRS with low mileage so yeah..

TBH, I work on quite a few FRS/BRZ so I've driven plenty from stock, to pretty modded.. I love how they feel, they are way more chuckable/fun to corner than an E46 M3, but my car of choice would be an M235I, driven the M2, but the M235I to me just feels like a boost E46 M3 to me.. the M2, well it had alot of carbon fiber goodies, but doesn't feel like a real M (like how the interior is)

[DarkSunrise]

One of my friends has a supercharged E46 M3 making ~500 hp. I've ridden with him at the track and driven it on the street. I think it's a great car personally, although very different than the Twins. It's more of a powerful, refined GT-type car than the Twins. Better car for the street IMO.

- A lot of power (obviously) but his is not stock. Engine revs smoothly all the way to 8000 RPM. Not a fan of the metallic exhaust note though.

- Easy to get used to the shifter/clutch combo. Smooth shifts between gears. Heavier clutch feel.

- Despite a fairly decent track setup (wider sticky tires, adjustable suspension, aggressive alignment, BBK), it doesn't have the corner grip or speed that a similarly setup Twin would have. Heavier and slower to react in corners. Steering rack is on the slow side. Ignoring the weight, the handling balance is good. Slight understeer on entry but can rotate the rear on power.

- BMW interior is much nicer & quieter than the Twins, although somewhat dated now. Seats are leather, not as aggressively bolstered as the Twins.

If you're thinking of getting an E46 M3, make sure you look into the rear subframe issues, especially if you are interested in tracking it. Also may need a VANOS rebuild if its got higher mileage on it.

[Twin4Life]

FWIW, a rather well to do ex CFO of my company owns an E36 M3. He also has an R8, 911 Turbo and an Aston Martin. He states the E36 is the best drivers car of the lot and drives it more than the rest combined.

[mhughett]

I had a Z4M Coupe which is even closer to the twins as it has the same body style as the twins but had the same motor as the E46 M3. I agree with most of the comments made about the engine note and weight but re: the engine, don't forget that it requires manual valve adjustments every 50k miles and these are pretty expensive services. I also had a problem with failures of oxygen sensors and other engine/electrical items.


As for the interior, dated but functional. The seats in the twins are more comfortable and I found the ride in my 2015 BRZ to be better and quieter than the BMW.

[Diode Dynamics]

The E46 M3 is a better all around car than the twins, definitely more luxurious.

I love the way the twins handle, but I'd take a manual E46 over a twin personally

Nick C.

[pgranberg11]

this is actually pretty relevant. I own a kraftwerks c38 on ethanol and my friend owns a e46 m3. Before I was supercharged he would roast me on pulls I couldn't even keep up. After being supercharged it's pretty much the opposite. I pull on him in 3rd gear. It's like his car loses steam up top. His is an smg transmission too so maybe that's the case.

now in terms of on track; can't really have a fair comparison since I have a year of track experience on him... but my car does a few seconds faster on gingerman raceway in michigan. I do have stickier tires than he does since he was running with michelin pilot super sports.

in my opinion if you want a fast car with not a lot of work, a well maintained M3 is totally worth it. however it does suck when it comes to repair. He's had to repair a bunch of random electrical issues that put him in a the hole a few thousand dollars.

if you want a blank slate to work with and you like tinkering to suit your fancy twins are the way to go in my opinion.

[Pat]

There is already a lot of good info in this thread I agree with, so I won't share all of my thoughts as many of them are repetitive.
That said, I will share what my friend had to say about the two cars. He owned an E46 M3 at the time. It had KW Clubsports, Brembo GT brakes and Conti slicks on it. He has significant track experience and borrowed my BRZ for a session at the local track one day. My car was stock other than camber plates, DTC-60s and BFG R1s tires. He MUCH preferred to drive my car on the track. It really made an impact on him and he still talks about it to this day.

[exE36M3]

Fun thread. If I *had* to get back into a BMW, I'd lean toward the M235i - and mostly because I tend to pull stock suspensions and do my own tuning. So going M2 would be silly (paying the $10k+ premium) only to pull the parts that make it an M2 so nifty.

Caveat about the E46 also... they are stupid expensive as used cars. A 100k miles E46 M3 still pushing $20k here in NorCal. And at the mileage, that's where the expensive maintenance comes into play.

The thing about sports cars - you *really* have to buy them for how you use them.


As much as I'd LOVE a 2000 Viper GTS, I'd never,ever be able to explore the limits of that car - both from a handling or acceleration standpoint. So the $45k-$60k just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think that's why the motor press LOVES the GT86 cars. You can pretty much drive them to their limits and enjoy 90-95% of the cars capabilities daily.

[Twinz]

The E46 M's I have driven at the track reminded me of my 350Z. Heavy, but powerful with "good" handling. The Twins feel much lighter and more nimble, but under-powered in the bottom half of the tach. FWIW I prefer my FR-S to my old 350Z as long as the FR-S is above 4500 RPM's.

[JGalp]

Originally Posted by exE36M3

Fun thread. If I *had* to get back into a BMW, I'd lean toward the M235i - and mostly because I tend to pull stock suspensions and do my own tuning. So going M2 would be silly (paying the $10k+ premium) only to pull the parts that make it an M2 so nifty.

Caveat about the E46 also... they are stupid expensive as used cars. A 100k miles E46 M3 still pushing $20k here in NorCal. And at the mileage, that were the expensive maintenance comes into play.

The thing about sports cars - you *really* have to buy them for how you use them.


As much as I'd LOVE a 2000 Viper GTS, I'd never,ever be able to explore the limits of that car - both from a handling or acceleration standpoint. So the $45k-$60k just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think that's why the motor press LOVES the GT86 cars. You can pretty much get them to their limits and enjoy 90-95% of the cars capabilities daily.

i e enjoyed what you shared. i did some research into the e46. I'm going back and forth because i need to get a larger car for my future family..but i wanted a sports car at the same time. constant battle in my head

i was looking into the e46 and had discovered the issues with the subframe, VANOS, and little electrical issues that come with 15 year old cars. I was super intrigued by the m2 but heard lots about the m235i as well. can you give me more details either on here or via PM about it? i was told by some guys that work at bmw to never buy..just lease..would it be smart to just lease a m235? anything to look out for?

[bfrank1972]

Wow it's great to see so many E36 guys here - owned a 97 E36 M3 myself, and back then I told myself I couldn't imagine getting a better all around car (and it was stock). Still believe that in many ways, but you're right about a sports car 'fitting' what you need. The BMW, to me, was a car that did everything great out of the box and I just left it alone. The FR-S I have is a fun 'tinker' car that begs to be modified (properly) to realize its potential. With headers it feels pretty close to the E36 M3 in power when on boil. Handling is totally different, light and darty vs the E36 M3's solid buttoned down feel - but back to back I'm pretty sure my FR-S will supersede my old E36 in handling by a decent margin (I'm on tarmac 2 coils, with a fairly aggressive alignment).

About to strap on a Kraftwerks C38 kit myself actually, so we'll see what I think after that.... (evil cackle)

[exE36M3]

JGalp:
I hear you. One of THE only reasons why I am not driving a GTS Viper, Vette or Rx-7 is that the I need a backseat for the kids. Mine are 10 and 15. So I *need* to get them in the car in a pinch. The E36 was my family car for when the kids were babies (Recaro baby seats and all!). I had a 1996 and 1995. Both were coupes, but big enough back seats for adults.

But here's the plain truth about BMWs from me, a BMW Car Club of America member of 16+ years (and former editor of the local club magazine). Don't buy any BMW past 2000 unless you can part with at least a $5k-$8k repair bill at any moment. For some reason, BMW's past 2000 (all models) just became a major PIA to maintain or trust. On their performance cars it was the turbos and fuel pumps. On their luxury cars it's the electronics going haywire. My friend bought a 2013 used 335is. He *loved* that thing and it was fast a hell. 6 months into ownership, it start smoking... bad. It wasn't the turbo or fuel pump - lucky him. It was a bad valve seal. Whee. A $2k-$3k job. My other friend, bought a brand new 2000 M5. In 2002 the car starts running funny. By 2003, motor blown. Why, oil passages self-clogged. Warranty? Nope. BMW said it was his fault. So cost of new motor? $20k.

As a BMW club member, I get the full gamut of stories. Most of the club guys I hang out with are racers and BMW techs. So when I personally retired my E36 M3 after 237k miles. I went looking at a 2010 135is, 2014 M235is, 2010 EVO 10, 2014 Subaru Sti, 2002 E46 M3, and a used 2013 BRZ.

Like you the main criteria was sports car and back seat. Here's how it went...

BMW 135is M-Sport - loved it. Fast. BUT no LSD (add in about $4k) and the extended warranty was $2.5k. So I needed to add $6.5K to have the car I wanted.

BMW M235is - Ok, I *really* liked this car. Smooth, fast, cushy. But at $42k... I really want my kid to go to college.( I'm in my 40s so there's a few things demanding my financial attention these days.)

EVO 10 - loved that. But no service support where I am. That can be ugly.

WRX Sti - fast car, but handling was... ok. Which surprised me. But great family hauler.

E46 M3 - $20k for a car 15 years old and with over 100k miles. It just didn't make any sense to me.

BRZ - Japanese build quality, simple, and I had a blast doing the test drive.

If someone were to ask me what BMW to buy I'd say get a 4-door E36 M3 1997-1999. They are all under $10k. Parts are pretty cheap and the cars are really easy to work on. If you *really* want a new BMW, I agree with the lease deal. For the price of a used car, you can get the best of the BMW experience without the long-term headaches of ownership. If you are looking at any other model, say a used one - STRONGLY consider an extended warranty - which is at least 10% of the price of the car.

So back to the E46 M3... my 2-cents... It's just going to be one big maintenance nightmare unless you find a guy who did ALL work and documented it. That's about the only way I can see anyone buying a $20k used car that is 15+ years old.

For my E46 brothers - I'm not saying it's a bad car, but it's a car still - and any car 15+ years old is going to need some attention.